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<p>In a real-life battle, clever commanders will look for as many advantages as possible: they will try to get the high ground, outnumber their enemies, flank and surround them, strike by surprise… If they could do so, they would only engage battle when odds are overwhelmingly in their favour, so the battle ends even before it begins. Video games, on the other hand, are supposed to be fun – and for that, they need to be fair, especially in multiplayer. If you see yourself in a disadvantaged position, you should be there because of taking the wrong decisions, not because the game failed to find a balance where it’s the one with the best skills who win. In a game with deep gameplay, such as Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord, with so many different factions, troop types, weaponry, terrain, etc., finding that delicate balance is particularly tricky.</p></br> [/parsehtml]Read more at: http://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Bannerlord/Blog/97
Dev Blog 14/02/18
- Thread starter Callum
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I'm not sure about that. There seems to be a decent delay between when the other char. dies and the release of the actual attack, which I would consider a hindrance to the weapon if it takes that long for the attack to actually release. If it's true that the attack had not been released yet, then it could mean that readying an attack with a spear puts it into "couched" mode rather than hitting x, which I'm ok with as it makes spears more viable. On the other hand, does the ai know this? It doesn't matter if spears can be braced by the player if the ai just ignores that fact.DanAngleland said:
Terco_Viejo said:Referring to the differentiating color, I'm personally opting for a more austere chromatism, not as aggressive as that of the gif. I don't know if you've ever played paintball but in the forest a few simple colored bracelets on each arm serve to differentiate well the enemy team from the ally.
Personally I would recover this if possible,
an intermediate system which highlights the original color of the design of the armor and other armament plus a note of color, okay.
Yeah, that's a good point as well.
I think it is very, very difficult to make troops visually differ in a subtle and effective way. Let's hope TW nails this one!
lovely gif, lovely charge and for those of you nitpicking , this is not total war ,its not like you would be seeing every cav charge in all angles during a battle , this looked very natural to me , Trust me if this was real life , the spears would not have made a difference , they would have been trampled similarly , I consider this a masterpiece , as there is NO game out there with this feature , and we enjoyed warband to death even though it wasn't half as cinematic as this .. So I find myself asking , why all the cry for realism and perfection , we sure are picky for a generation that learnt about medieval warfare from hollywood and old books that could have been exaggerations .
This isnt a cry for realism and perfection or nitpicking. Its about balanced fun gameplay for everyone playing.
Believe it or not, not everyone enjoys filling their army with swadian knights crushing every other army without a challenge. From what I see here, infantry focused armies and gameplay will suffer so butterlords can play a trampling simulator.
A pleasant surprise would be that these troops are simply undrilled and therefore recieve a charge very poorly. And troops that are higher tier not only have better skills and equipment, but also better ai that can recieve a charge properly. Though that might be asking too much.
Believe it or not, not everyone enjoys filling their army with swadian knights crushing every other army without a challenge. From what I see here, infantry focused armies and gameplay will suffer so butterlords can play a trampling simulator.
A pleasant surprise would be that these troops are simply undrilled and therefore recieve a charge very poorly. And troops that are higher tier not only have better skills and equipment, but also better ai that can recieve a charge properly. Though that might be asking too much.
cherac said:
Well, no Warhorse no matter how well trained would charge into and through a solid block of men. They'd have to have broken formation or started fleeing for the gif to be realistic. Napoleonic squares were breeched a handful of times usually in specific circumstances (like a KGL cavalryman's horse falling into the square and thrashing about, causing an opening like at the Battle of García Hernández) or on the weak flank or corner of something like a Tercio. Charging infantry arrayed closely would not benefit the Knight as his mount would very likely turn, leaving his side exposed or crashing into his companions, or rear up and leave him similarly vulnerable (One actually does in the gif so kudos to TW for that). The idea that a group of fifty Knight's horses all charged through a solid block of infantry at multiple places requires some suspension of disbelief... which for a computer game I have plenty of. Still looks awesome.
Well, the line was not broken everywhere, some areas took the charge better than others. The bottom part had less troop density and more horses crashing through it (new horses push stuck horses through) and thus saw a breakthrough but this other part of the line had an extra line of troop density and a bit less horses charge it, you can see it held firm.
Rhaeyl
No idea if things like this are tied into the AI and whatnot, but it looks like most of the line just came to a halt and didn't have enough time to brace properly / shock factor.
That denser part of the formation that resisted the most had less movement, and they were stationary for longer.
That's what I mean it reminds me of Total War formation physics, it's similar to how a line would react to a charge there. The parts of a formation that are still fussing around as the charge hits always get crushed like in this gif.
That denser part of the formation that resisted the most had less movement, and they were stationary for longer.
That's what I mean it reminds me of Total War formation physics, it's similar to how a line would react to a charge there. The parts of a formation that are still fussing around as the charge hits always get crushed like in this gif.
@Count Delinard I think your idea of a line not being broken is different from mine... Considering the cav completely plowed through and virtually none died, I think they broke the line. Yes that one part of the line toward the back "held" but as you said, very few horses charged them. Still, half the ones that charged there still made it through, and the other half didn't die even though they were stuck by the end of the gif.
If you ask me, it's a pretty weak defense if even a 5 man deep formation only stops half of such few enemies.
If you ask me, it's a pretty weak defense if even a 5 man deep formation only stops half of such few enemies.
Now that you mention it, I see the resemblance. However, if this were Total War and those were spearmen (they did have spears), the cavalry would not be in such good shape.Rhaeyl said:
Im pretty sure the only reason the infantry is moving is because they have a "face enemy" command, so their formation was just rotating/adjusting. As you can see the far part of the line moving right, and the close part moving left. Its not that they didn't have time to brace/prepare for a charge, it is that they are not programmed to brace/prepare for a charge.
It doesn't feel like the extra line of infantry in the center did anything... The only reason those cav were stopped was because they were alone. That part of the line didn't take the charge better, they just didn't get the actual effective part of the charge.
It doesn't feel like the extra line of infantry in the center did anything... The only reason those cav were stopped was because they were alone. That part of the line didn't take the charge better, they just didn't get the actual effective part of the charge.
My issue with the spears isn't so much that they didn't stop the charge flat out, but that there doesn't seem to be a single hit made with a spear. Definitely agree with Rhaeyl that part of the line didn't seem to get set up fast enough, which does make sense, but it seems to me the biggest factor is how the game treats units. As each unit is 'counted' (for lack of a better term) individually, it takes away some of the strength of the formation (depending on how disciplined/trained the unit is). The main reason a block of infantry is deterring to cavalry is that, upon receiving a charge, they would close ranks and support each other, so the first rank is pushed back into the second rank etc., leaving much less room for the charging party to exploit. If you compare this gif to a Total War game's charge, where units are counted as part of formations, charges don't break set formations of infantry (unless attacked in the flank or rear), whereas here you can see each individual hit by the charge is thrown backwards, regardless of how close their allies are, breaking the formation and allowing the charge to be successful. This could be due, as others have said, to the units being low tier troops, but it could also be a side-effect of what makes M&B unique, having a bunch of individual soldiers under your command and trying to get them to behave as a unit.
All in all, I do think the gif looks beautiful, and I would expect the knights to eventually win that combat. If I am right and it's a side effect of having each unit be an individual, well then I suppose we'll just have to deal with that, as changing it could change the entire way the game is played.
All in all, I do think the gif looks beautiful, and I would expect the knights to eventually win that combat. If I am right and it's a side effect of having each unit be an individual, well then I suppose we'll just have to deal with that, as changing it could change the entire way the game is played.
John.M said:
What if that is the main point? these troops looked weak, with no armour and one handed spears , just imagine yourself standing in front of an armoured horse with a one handed spear, this game won't be a clean cut realistic battle simulator , this is as close as we are getting and we can all agree it looks beautiful , and besides from my other point, you won't be noticing these things in large scale battles anyway , so what's the point of wasting more dev time on this, when there are more features requiring attention .
Roccoflipside said:
My point exactly , its a game people , let Taleworlds do their thing , criticizing everything they show would only let them show less and its bad for morale and confidence as they are nearing release , the last thing we want is for them to restart
If making a trampling simulator is the main point, then I would be very disappointed. My second paragraph was being optimistic, no chance that is actually what is delivered.cherac said:
Cavalry armies wiping all other armies would be extremely noticeable in battles, especially large scale ones. If you think making balanced fun gameplay is a waste of time, then we do not want the same thing from Bannerlord. What feature besides battles deserves more attention? I always thought the battles were the main draw of Mount and Blade.
vicwiz007 said:
What 5 man deep formation? In the GIF it is 3 deep at most in my eyes.
John.M said:
+1
Attacks would be carried out on horseback only under favorable conditions. If the enemy infantry was equipped with polearms and fought in tight formations it was not possible to charge without heavy losses. A fairly common solution to this was for the men-at-arms to dismount and assault the enemy on foot, such as the way Scottish knights dismounted to stiffen the infantry schiltron or the English combination of longbowmen with dismounted men-at-arms in the Hundred Years' War. Another possibility was to bluff an attack, but turn around before impact. This tempted many infantrymen to go on the chase, leaving their formation. The heavy cavalry then turned around again in this new situation and rode down the scattered infantry. Such a tactic was deployed in the Battle of Hastings (1066).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_tactics#Tactics_of_heavy_cavalry_using_lances
Also, if cavalry was the ultimate medieval weapon why did Norman troops routinely dismount and fight on foot? In reality cavalry is effective against other cavalry or disorganized infantry.
https://www.albion-swords.com/articles/norman.htm
Norman heavy cavalry were also defeated by longbows despite charging downhill at the Battle of Crug Mawr (1136).
http://www.battlefieldsofbritain.co.uk/battle_crug_mawr_1136.html
Great Blog and that the Cavalry is breaking through is looking Great, but the only thing that bothers me is that the defenders aim the one Cav.unit which has the first Contact, they don´t face the Cav. Unit in Front of them.
Hope that Paul Kaloff have a Good time in TW
Some Question to Paul: What was the reason why you went to TW? Was it a big move for you to went to Turkey?
Maybe i get some anwser
Keep up the good work
Hope that Paul Kaloff have a Good time in TW
Some Question to Paul: What was the reason why you went to TW? Was it a big move for you to went to Turkey?Maybe i get some anwser
Keep up the good work
John.M said:
Believe it or not cavalry charges won most battles, not only in medieval times but even in the late periods, like the Battle Of Vienna , I don't know about you , Knights were pretty OP and even though there were comparatively few battles with over 100 knights , the battles were most always decided by them . Also I bet the units are well balanced , once again they know what they are doing , that charge in the gif , shouldn't have happened any other way, did you expect such weakly amoured troops , to hold the knights like a wall , just because they were in a shield wall and One-Handed spears? what kind of unrealistic scenario is that? If the line was made up of heavily amoured units 4+ ranks deep , long spears , then it would have been something slightly different . Also the talk about horse not charging spears is wrong , war horses were bred and trained for such scenarios , yes it happened but it wasn't always .
Regardless of what side of realism one falls in on the debate, I think horses should not shy away from a charge nor have the player lose control of their movement. The main reason I think most are worried about the charge is not that the knights won but that the spearmen barely attempted any form of effective resistance. @DeusPuppy I agree the main problem is how the AI faces an enemy cav charge that will make even heavily armored infantry with two-handed spears get rolled over.
