Class Customization System: Bannerlord vs Warband

[Younes]

im talking about a class

I'm talking about armor since this is the most affected. Thus why i was always talking about "armor calculation" or "localized damage" which all concern armor.

You talk about how easy it is to balance yet they can't even manage to do it. You need 2 perks (i recall there going to be a third one) and all of them have to be in perfect balance or else you would have metas.

You have right now in total 9 options to pick from in multiplayer per class. And ALL of them have to be PERFECTLY in harmony with eachother or you have a meta.

Warband prevented this by limiting how much gold you had and what you could buy. Doesn't mean some weapons were more meta but buying a class didn't mean u would have the best weapon in the game in warband from the get go.

 

[Caps]

So bannerlord just needs to restrict heavy infantry or nerf them (wait thats what they are testing at the moment)
So other classes can be played. You are fighting the whole system even if you just want a small aspect of it changed.
If heavy inf is changed different gold values could lead to different picks.

Warband btw had meta aswell, you would always go for the same stuff and then upgrade as far as you can.

 

[Younes]

So bannerlord just needs to restrict heavy infantry or nerf them (wait thats what they are testing at the moment)
So other classes can be played. You are fighting the whole system even if you just want a small aspect of it changed.

Warband btw had meta aswell, you would always go for the same stuff and then upgrade as far as you can.

No because if you want to add more, you always have to take into account the perks you added before. This will gradually get more and more but it looks like TW is sticking to 3 perks. Meaning once we get to 3 perks, that's it. All we getting.

I don't want a small aspect changed, the whole system is a failure and an insult to mount and blade multiplayer.

It only fits the two gamemodes TW made, captain and skirmish but the classic gamemodes it doesn't fit. Warband had a lot less meta then bannerlord and was made by a significant smaller TW.

You are talking about a 10 year old game, what exactly do you expect people to do after playing the game for 10 years? Stick to the game and pretend like its their first time playing? Obviously people will know what the best weapons are after 10 years what did you expect honestly?

And like i said, your completely wrong. Warband meta is not significant as bannerlord. Warband metas could have been solved with simply balance changes but TW didn't do them which is understandable in a way, who wants to suddenly risk losing their playerbase by doing some terrible balance changes

 

[Caps]

No because if you want to add more, you always have to take into account the perks you added before. This will gradually get more and more but it looks like TW is sticking to 3 perks. Meaning once we get to 3 perks, that's it. All we getting.

I don't want a small aspect changed, the whole system is a failure and an insult to mount and blade multiplayer.

It only fits the two gamemodes TW made, captain and skirmish but the classic gamemodes it doesn't fit. Warband had a lot less meta then bannerlord and was made by a significant smaller TW.

You are talking about a 10 year old game, what exactly do you expect people to do after playing the game for 10 years? Stick to the game and pretend like its their first time playing? Obviously people will know what the best weapons are after 10 years what did you expect honestly?

And like i said, your completely wrong. Warband meta is not significant as bannerlord. Warband metas could have been solved with simply balance changes but TW didn't do them which is understandable in a way, who wants to suddenly risk losing their playerbase by doing some terrible balance changes

I wouldnt add more perks than we currently have. (2x3)

Idk why it wouldnt fit siege but ok and i couldnt care less about TDM being absolutely balanced.

I never complained about it having the same meta all over again, but you cant claim that it offered far more than bannerlord.

 

[Younes]

I wouldnt add more perks than we currently have. (2x3)

Idk why it wouldnt fit siege but ok and i couldnt care less about TDM being absolutely balanced.

I never complained about it having the same meta all over again, but you cant claim that it offered far more than bannerlord.

It's far better then bannerlord, 800%. Just look at all the polls, no one likes the system forced down our throats. This is all i'm out ?

 

[Emil]

It only fits the two gamemodes TW made, captain and skirmish but the classic gamemodes it doesn't fit. Warband had a lot less meta then bannerlord and was made by a significant smaller TW.

Agreed. The perk system is great for competitive mode, but in a sense it ended up being a step backwards for the non-competitive modes. Hopefully, coders and scripters will be able to revert the path taken by TW with the release of further mod kits, map editors and dedicated server files in order to create servers for large organized battles, RP, PK and so forth in the multi-player.

 

[Caps]

Agreed. The perk system is great for competitive mode, but in a sense it ended up being a step backwards for the non-competitive modes. Hopefully, coders and scripters will be able to revert the path taken by TW with the release of further mod kits, map editors and dedicated server files in order to create servers for large organized battles, RP, PK and so forth in the multi-player.

nw had a class system aswell and it was great for big battles (it had way more of them than native aswell)

 

[Emil]

nw had a class system aswell and it was great for big battles

If the Bannerlord class system looked like the NW class system, there would be so much less trouble for TaleWorlds to balance stuff since the musket is the main weapon used by a large percentage of the players, and the armors are pretty much all the same. The thing is, NW is mainly competitive in a sense with 1000+ players participating in closed events each weekend. Neither I or @Younes123 has argued against the competitive aspect though. I have no clue whether you've revisited NW or not, but pretty much all popular or large communities has employed scripters and coders to give players the option to pick uniforms, hats and so forth. You liked the big organized battles too? Well, let me tell you that the Bannerlord perk system lacks an officer class, and that's kind of a big issue.

 

[Younes]

Napoleonic wars was also during a time period where standardization was a thing. FSE didn't develop napoleonic wars without any thought behind it. Napoleonic wars is like comparing oranges to apples if you compare it to bannerlord. They had unique classes like sappers, artillery, medic, ... the list just keeps going on. The point is that the devs knew what they were doing.

 

[Caps]

If the Bannerlord class system looked like the NW class system, there would be so much less trouble for TaleWorlds to balance stuff since the musket is the main weapon used by a large percentage of the players, and the armors are pretty much all the same. The thing is, NW is mainly competitive in a sense with 1000+ players participating in closed events each weekend. Neither I or @Younes123 has argued against the competitive aspect though. I have no clue whether you've revisited NW or not, but pretty much all popular or large communities has employed scripters and coders to give players the option to pick uniforms, hats and so forth. You liked the big organized battles too? Well, let me tell you that the Bannerlord perk system lacks an officer class, and that's kind of a big issue.

Sword and board is the main weapon aswell (the rest of the customizations fit for medival context) I wouldnt call these events competitive?? they are the most casual form of gameplay next to pubs.

I hope that a specialised unit tab comes, that is locked for skirmish and cpt.
It contains

• a Cpt (Perk1: +9armor +100-200 hp, banner, instrument) (Perk2: sword, mace, or another weapon) so that it matches the main infantry unit of the faction (could be split up aswell)
• Sapper (Perk1: hammer, shovel, etc.) basicly the nw medival version (similar to the mordhau one or whatever)
• Medic
• other

i want to see them aswell along with public skins, that allow you to customize all 5 pieces of armor. That would be especially nice for NW.
But there are more important things to fix atm and most of them only can only shine on custom servers.

 

[Emil]

Sword and board is the main weapon aswell

Never implied muskets was the only weapon, rather the most used weapon. There are normally less of units such as rifles or cavalry in these events.

I wouldnt call these events competitive??

That's not really up for debate. Events might not always be a part of a tournament, but having rules and customs to ensure fair play and determine wins by events such as scoring rounds are the very definition of the term.

I hope that a specialised unit tab comes

It appears you were inspired and realized some stuff which is great. However, do not expect TW to change the current system. If it took eight years to make this system, it'll take them eight years to revert and redevelop it. Our hope, as I previously stated in my other post, is for scripters and coders to dedicate their free time in order to save the remaining multi-player community. Be happy if they release battle mode, which was something they recently published more information about, this after implying it wouldn't be done in the same sense as in Warband. Public players, regiments and servers had been wishing for information on it for months. Still, battle mode is a waste if there's no way of organizing the battles with the help of custom beacons, officer classes, in-game VOIP and so forth.

 

[Caps]

I dont want the battle mode, it has way too much death timer for a large scale battle, its sad that conquest never was popular. (similar to battlefield)
Musicians are always nice to have. But those extra classes dont really have anything to do about which class system is better, because they can be implemented in both.

LB were just a bot farming fest and some internet ego competition for regimental leaders.(on my last public lb my reg was sitting behind a hill telling stories) You could argue that regimental 1v1 leagues (NWL) were somewhat competitive. (maybe) But even 8o8 tournaments and nation cups were washed down in skill aswell and only semi-competitive.

Spoiler

 

[Emil]

I dont want the battle mode, it has way too much death timer for a large scale battle

Yeah, that's probably what TaleWorlds thought too. Everyone just want to end up in battle quickly! Your life, and the fight means nothing in respawn modes. In order to have players actually fight for their lives and encourage organized battles then you need a massive version of skirmish (battle), but as the thread state; with the ability to opt-out or opt-in between the Warband / Bannerlord unit system depending on whether it's a casual public event or a competitive closed event. Battle mode also opens up for player-made modes such as PK, RP as I stated earlier in my other post.

Its sad that conquest never was popular.

We've all seen our fair share of Capture the Flag-adaptation games. The latest medieval version might've been Of Men and Kings, which quickly became lackluster due to the fact that players were doing the same multi-player mode hours on end.

Musicians are always nice to have. But those extra classes dont really have anything to do about which class system is better, because they can be implemented in both.

Neither I or Younes appear to argue against the Bannerlord competitive modes. However, what both of us appears to agree to is how it's unfortunate how the non-competitive modes are being hindered by the competitive modes. TaleWorlds could've developed one system for the competitive modes and another for the non-competitive modes, but they didn't.

I don't think an explicit class system is necessary. As leaders can be voted, manually assigned and so forth, or just be the match-making group leader. The main issue is having these leaders marked and visible all the time in-game and on map in order to easier have the rest of the group follow the correct person.

LB were

Imagine talking in past tense when NW MP is more alive than Bannerlord MP, and it's more alive for a reason.

 

[Caps]

can only hope they fix sp quick and start working on mp

 

[Younes]

When the DLC from a 10 year old game is more popular then the MP

 

[JakoB]

+1 to Hope

 

[Tacostrom]

Why this poll again, there was already a huge one after EA release
Poll Class System
and several during the Beta period.
The community answer is always the same, TW answer is always the same. If they want to risk their official servers going empty the day full loadout customization mod launches for MP, its in their right. For now lets just move on

I agree with you. Not sure the point of spamming the same thing over and over. I wish we had a dev tracker or something like that so that new users could peep what dev's have said previously.

 

[Younes]

It's like i wish we had a thread compiled with all the discussions about it ?

 

[Sundeki]

they responded in the mp statement and said multiple times that its not going to change

I think you missed my point. The community has gone over every element of their response with a fine tooth comb. I've had one 3 hour long conversation regarding it (there was a bit of other talk thrown in, but as a whole it was just about the class system), and the rationale we've been provided makes zero sense. The more the game is played, the less some of the rationales provided make sense.

And me saying "Good luck with the thread, man." was half ironic in that I know they've said they're not going to change it.

• Most players play cpt mode end of story, the class system offers way more there... Cpt mode was the first mode developed
• Programming wise its litterly the same system just with locked armor and movement values (which we had before as proficiency)
• TDM, Siege, Skirmish need to be rebalanced to make all the units playable (They said they gonna nerf heavy inf)
• starting to rebalance everything from scratch would be an insane amount of work, that can be put into the existing system
• At the end it doesnt offer much more customization
• The new system enables more different playstyles, less rigid on swapping during the game, you can play heavy units from the get go
• Once skins are added people will be able to customize their units (for clan or regiments)
• Its easier to make additions

1. We don't know who plays what. Given that Captain's mode is the most fleshed out and functional part of Bannerlord Multiplayer, and that Multiplayer has largely been ignored in favor of singleplayer(I know Mount & Blade is primarily a singleplayer game, so this isn't actually a complaint); it's a reasonable assertion to say that as of right now, Captain's Mode might be a very highly played game type. But until I see some metrics, of any sort; we don't really know. And we also know that as the pedestrian audience has their fill and moves on, Captain's Mode will see the most dramatic decline in playerbase.
2. It isn't.
3. -
4. -
5. For you. All of my casual play in Warband was meme builds, because going hyper-sweaty and ****ting on people without a fun twist isn't enjoyable. I like to be able to choose what is optimal for me and my playstyle, and often I've found it contradicts the meta. Warband offered a massive and significant amount of customization by comparison. And simply having that choice, even if it sometimes isn't optimal/viable, or used, is a cornerstone of RPG mechanics since the dawn of gaming.
6. The new system offers more useless playstyles, there are meta picks and items and everything else is boring and useless. As for playing with heavy units from the get go: yuck. Spending 30 seconds bouncing off the armor of some noob that turtles endlessly isn't a fun experience. Ironically, for both of us. Because unless he recognizes the hopelessness of the situation, he has to spend 30-40 seconds getting whaled on and feeling like trash because he can't actually fight me, instead of dying and respawning, and being able to fight someone else who is probably at their skill level. This drags down my fun, it drags down his fun, he is learning more slowly, and I am walking away frustrated. Very, very poor choice of design, and I'm not even talking about the myriad of problems it creates for optimized/competitive play.
7. I couldn't care less about what my character looks like. If wearing a tutu was the optimal armor piece; I would wear it.
8. It's either harder to make additions, or no harder/easier. In a Warband system, if you add an armor/weapon, you just place it in and adjust the cost for a few patches. In Bannerlord you have to figure out if people will even waste a perk slot on it, and you end up with what there is now: not enough first perk slots, and people breaking their g key dropping crap from the second perk slots.

 

[Caps]

I think you missed my point. The community has gone over every element of their response with a fine tooth comb. I've had one 3 hour long conversation regarding it (there was a bit of other talk thrown in, but as a whole it was just about the class system), and the rationale we've been provided makes zero sense. The more the game is played, the less some of the rationales provided make sense.

And me saying "Good luck with the thread, man." was half ironic in that I know they've said they're not going to change it.

1. We don't know who plays what. Given that Captain's mode is the most fleshed out and functional part of Bannerlord Multiplayer, and that Multiplayer has largely been ignored in favor of singleplayer(I know Mount & Blade is primarily a singleplayer game, so this isn't actually a complaint); it's a reasonable assertion to say that as of right now, Captain's Mode might be a very highly played game type. But until I see some metrics, of any sort; we don't really know. And we also know that as the pedestrian audience has their fill and moves on, Captain's Mode will see the most dramatic decline in playerbase.
2. It isn't.
3. -
4. -
5. For you. All of my casual play in Warband was meme builds, because going hyper-sweaty and ****ting on people without a fun twist isn't enjoyable. I like to be able to choose what is optimal for me and my playstyle, and often I've found it contradicts the meta. Warband offered a massive and significant amount of customization by comparison. And simply having that choice, even if it sometimes isn't optimal/viable, or used, is a cornerstone of RPG mechanics since the dawn of gaming.
6. The new system offers more useless playstyles, there are meta picks and items and everything else is boring and useless. As for playing with heavy units from the get go: yuck. Spending 30 seconds bouncing off the armor of some noob that turtles endlessly isn't a fun experience. Ironically, for both of us. Because unless he recognizes the hopelessness of the situation, he has to spend 30-40 seconds getting whaled on and feeling like trash because he can't actually fight me, instead of dying and respawning, and being able to fight someone else who is probably at their skill level. This drags down my fun, it drags down his fun, he is learning more slowly, and I am walking away frustrated. Very, very poor choice of design, and I'm not even talking about the myriad of problems it creates for optimized/competitive play.
7. I couldn't care less about what my character looks like. If wearing a tutu was the optimal armor piece; I would wear it.
8. It's either harder to make additions, or no harder/easier. In a Warband system, if you add an armor/weapon, you just place it in and adjust the cost for a few patches. In Bannerlord you have to figure out if people will even waste a perk slot on it, and you end up with what there is now: not enough first perk slots, and people breaking their g key dropping crap from the second perk slots.

2. you can legit change 90% of the current system to the old one just by xml changes (the interface obv looks different)
5. i cant really comment on with which units you liked to troll around
6. they stated that they gonna nerf heavy infantry, there are meta picks because nothing is balanced
7. cool
8. here you can add whole new classes like sapper etc. (which worked on the old one aswell because they are so similar) The second perk on most classes is better than the first. Because throwing weapons are broken, obv you gonna throw them (away)