Annoyed by Jav-Cav

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Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I know the competitiv scene is having discussion about throwing weapons almost every day now but usually it is concerning inf vs cav or inf vs inf.

I wanted to have this thread because I am absolutly annoyed by the use of javelins in cav vs cav situations.

Recently, the meta changed in such a way, that at the start of the game skirmishers drop one strong throwing weapon (like the Ash Throwing Spear or Pila) to pick up for the cav.
Usually both sides do that and the following early cav duels are resolved by either side getting dismounted or killed by a throwing spear.

In the past, these throwing spears would be usually used by inf players as a counter meassure to fend of enemy cavalry. With the recent reduction of horse HP and Armour though and the overbundace of javelins( due to the limited use of heavy infantry/ the preference of multiple spawns of weaker skirmisher units ) giving cav throwing weapons became really valuable.

I think that's not fun.
With double S-Key, double W-Key and the option for high and low stabs, cavalry has lot's of options to engage in intense cavalry duels, which were a cornerstone of past competetiv matches.
Thanks to jav-cav all of that lost it's importance.

I am not going to say that jav-cav doesn't need skill but it honestly feels more frustrating and more of a gamble than actual melee confrontation.
It's certainly not my playstyle and I hope that things will go back to the older meta.

I personally don't have a problem with the fact that infantry can now uses a lot of javelins against cavalry, however I don't see any reason why cav should have access to throwables (especially the strong ones) in the first place.

I wouldn't mind if cavalry wasn't able to use throwing weapons at all.

Cavalry already has lot's of advantages, especially lances and I see no reason why they need to wield throwing weapons.
Removing that option wouldn't really worsen their usability vs infantry but it would make cavalry duels more enjoyable.


Make cav duels fun again.
 

Einarcf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I like thematically cav being able to use javs. It should not be that big of a problem. Throwing spears and pilum should not be able to be used in throwing mode while mounted. I think they are ok when used in melee mode. Not a big problem.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
I agree with it in principle but difficult to ensure it's followed, especially for newer teams who may not know. Also situations like getting dismounted, picking up throwing weapons to throw back, and finding a horse again, will happen organically.

We should lobby the devs and make clear this is an option but it should a last resort.
 

LANDALORE

Veteran
We are making changes to address this behavior.
You mentioned horse HP and armor will be reduced further, as of right now a jareed can almost 1 shot an armored horse from horseback, soon basic javs will be able to do this, I miss nord jav cav from warband, but I wouldnt be against having throwing on horseback be as innacurate as horse archery is, this would greatly help against cav throwing meta.

On a side note its really nice to use a throwing spear as a lance for factions like sturgia and battania, it has more reach then the light horse classes basic spear and hits as hard as a sturgian heavy lance. Light cav units should be able to use throwing spears, but not throw them on horseback.
 

Ruthven

Baron
WBM&BVC
We are making changes to address this behavior.
Sincerely, good luck

****ing wild how balanced Warband was looking back on it... Nord jav cav was great at harassing enemy cav and infs, but Nord cav absolutely needed the jav advantage (for their cav.) Dropping javs for nord inf is maybe a little OP, but I digress...

One of the nice things about throwing weapons in WB was that it wasn't an insta 1hit kill stick. If you were being chased by jav cav, you could run away and use speed bonus/dodge to keep your horse alive, even with like 5 javs in it - but if you charge in recklessly inf can easily unicorn you or your horse.. In BL, at best you can try to have your horse get hit for 80%HP instead of 100%HP in a single throw. Ah and if it hits your leg, you are beyond ****ed instantly. But at least in BL Skirm you can respawn, and then get clapped by the literal same throwing spear a 2nd time.
 

Livso

Recruit
I absolutely agree. I miss the times when start of round used to be 2v2 cavs, it was fun, it was about skill. People respected each other ( or atleast thats my view).
Now every round plays the same, either it goes for dismount when both sides have throwing spear, or when its for example sturgia vs aserai, aserai cav can go jerk off to the corner as they cannot contest enemy cav with throwing spear.
At start it was actually fun, it was fresh, cavs seen it as a challenge and something to fear, now it got repetetive and boring and tbh it just makes me wanna play BL less and less.
 

Rangah

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
I absolutely agree. I miss the times when start of round used to be 2v2 cavs, it was fun, it was about skill. People respected each other ( or atleast thats my view).
Now every round plays the same, either it goes for dismount when both sides have throwing spear, or when its for example sturgia vs aserai, aserai cav can go jerk off to the corner as they cannot contest enemy cav with throwing spear.
At start it was actually fun, it was fresh, cavs seen it as a challenge and something to fear, now it got repetetive and boring and tbh it just makes me wanna play BL less and less.
Amen, pretty much sums everything up
 

hoonii

Squire
ban throwing weapon from cav, or atleast dont let use cav the pila and throwing spears please
+1
Now there should be very little that is holding you from banning throwables on cav for BEAST Ikea :grin:
I absolutely agree. I miss the times when start of round used to be 2v2 cavs, it was fun, it was about skill. People respected each other ( or atleast thats my view).
Now every round plays the same, either it goes for dismount when both sides have throwing spear, or when its for example sturgia vs aserai, aserai cav can go jerk off to the corner as they cannot contest enemy cav with throwing spear.
At start it was actually fun, it was fresh, cavs seen it as a challenge and something to fear, now it got repetetive and boring and tbh it just makes me wanna play BL less and less.
+1, I want the old duels back.
 

Eder

Grandmaster Knight
I absolutely agree. I miss the times when start of round used to be 2v2 cavs, it was fun, it was about skill. People respected each other ( or atleast thats my view).
Now every round plays the same, either it goes for dismount when both sides have throwing spear, or when its for example sturgia vs aserai, aserai cav can go jerk off to the corner as they cannot contest enemy cav with throwing spear.
At start it was actually fun, it was fresh, cavs seen it as a challenge and something to fear, now it got repetetive and boring and tbh it just makes me wanna play BL less and less.
Ya definitly agree with that
 
yeah sure, make game even more linear and boring! why even bother, lets just remove everything but a lance+shields from all cav classes! cant hold my breath about getting killed in not (!) melee from a cav!
i like how AVRC only making atention on jav-hate threads, like a magnet or whatever

pick a throwing weapon - suck at anti-inf but get good vs anticav, jeesus what an unbalanced perk (when also all cav classes with this perk doesnt have lance lets mention this)
as a huge lover of cav-throwing i will be hugely dissapointed by removal of them, because its one of things i absolutely love in BL just because its diverse from your *daily routine mashing 2-handers/shooting "fraction standart issue rifle... ahem bow"*, let game be more interesting in its aproach, jesus

You mentioned horse HP and armor will be reduced further, as of right now a jareed can almost 1 shot an armored horse from horseback, soon basic javs will be able to do this, I miss nord jav cav from warband, but I wouldnt be against having throwing on horseback be as innacurate as horse archery is, this would greatly help against cav throwing meta.

On a side note its really nice to use a throwing spear as a lance for factions like sturgia and battania, it has more reach then the light horse classes basic spear and hits as hard as a sturgian heavy lance. Light cav units should be able to use throwing spears, but not throw them on horseback.
Whats even a goddamn point in "throwing" spear on horseback which you cant actually throw? To ground yourself and throw from foot?
Maybe just add "Longer and stronger spear" perk maybe thats what you trying to suggest?
 

Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Whats even a goddamn point in "throwing" spear on horseback which you cant actually throw? To ground yourself and throw from foot?
Maybe just add "Longer and stronger spear" perk maybe thats what you trying to suggest?
The Ash Throwing Spear has better melee stats than most of the default cav spears
 
The Ash Throwing Spear has better melee stats than most of the default cav spears
OK, a nerf of melee stats of ash sounds about right.
but i dont think this weapon in melee state is anything close to a lance, its like saying a pistol has same battle performance as an M1 Abrams MBT
At least suggest adding lances instead of throwings, despite the suck'ety of this idea it has some sense to it
 

Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
That's not the point of the thread at all. I don't care much about the melee stas of the throwing weapons.
It's about my issue that I ( and seemingly a couple other people aswell) don't like the gameplay that evovled from cav having acces to strong throwing spears.

But then again you and me seem to have really different views on that. So no hard feelings.
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
Someone explain to me why the throwing spears are even in the game at all.

Theyve been largely removed before in past updates but I guess someone drooled on their keyboard too much and the gruel grew sentience and added them back without anyone at taleworlds realizing.

I cant explain the logic behind a 1 hit kill meme stick in a game where time to kill is often 10+ seconds in the infantry fights. The time to kill is lower for Cavalry and Archers in certain situations because (in theory, but this is another thing that Taleworlds cant seem to figure out) Archers and Cav are also easier to punish in the same melee fights where the ttk is much longer for infantry.
 
That's not the point of the thread at all. I don't care much about the melee stas of the throwing weapons.
It's about my issue that I ( and seemingly a couple other people aswell) don't like the gameplay that evovled from cav having acces to strong throwing spears.

But then again you and me seem to have really different views on that. So no hard feelings.

The whole problem with throwing spears stems from the fundamentally skewed balance in Skirmish; your suggestion on cav javs is merely a crutch to somewhat prop it up, but not to fix the underlying issue.

Which is the fact that, in Skirmish, the narrative is almost entirely dictated by cav, especially heavy cav. While I feel that light cav is in a decent place right now, being powerful, but also quite fragile, heavy cav is still a problem. Let's do a quick count:
- cav superiority = flag advantage;
- mobility and harrassment potential;
- survivability (double-tap W to moonwalk out of a scrap);
- insane armor;
- one-hit couched lances and bump-stabs.

Granted, all these features can only be taken advantage of by good cav players (I'm garbage, btw). But there is definitely a reason why:
a) cav always gets drafted first at Destiny Pickups and,
b) when picking infantry, most teams have generally favoured the classes that have access to throwing spears. It was heavy inf before the rebalance, light and shock inf after.
As it stands right now, throwing spears are the quickest and most reliable way to down a heavy cav. It takes 2-3 two-hander swings to off the rider, while spears and one-handers do frack all, and I'm not even talking about the horse. Rearing has become more reliable after the fixes last autumn, but cav is still more afraid of pila than of the janky lolsticks called infantry spears.

Fix cav superiority, and one-shot abominations won't be needed at all.
 
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Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
The whole problem with throwing spears stems from the fundamentally skewed balance in Skirmish; your suggestion on cav javs is merely a crutch to somewhat prop it up, but not to fix the underlying issue.

Which is the fact that, in Skirmish, the narrative is almost entirely dictated by cav, especially heavy cav. While I feel that light cav is in a decent place right now, being powerful, but also quite fragile, heavy cav is still a problem. Let's do a quick count:
- cav superiority = flag advantage;
- mobility and harrassment potential;
- survivability (double-tap W to moonwalk out of a scrap);
- insane armor;
- one-hit couched lances and bump-stabs.

Granted, all these features can only be taken advantage of by good cav players (I'm garbage, btw). But there is definitely a reason why:
a) cav always gets drafted first at Destiny Pickups and,
b) when picking infantry, most teams have generally favoured the classes that have access to throwing spears. It was heavy inf before the rebalance, light and shock inf after.
As it stands right now, throwing spears are the quickest and most reliable way to down a heavy cav. It takes 2-3 two-hander swings to off the rider, while spears and one-handers do frack all, and I'm not even talking about the horse. Rearing has become more reliable after the fixes last autumn, but cav is still more afraid of pila than of the janky lolsticks called infantry spears.

Fix cav superiority, and one-shot abominations won't be needed at all.

Not really the point of this thread.
As I said here:
I personally don't have a problem with the fact that infantry can now uses a lot of javelins against cavalry,


The topic is that players are forced to use javelins in cav vs cav situations - and that it is not a fun experience.
It doesn't have much to do with cav superiority since that is cavalry in relation to infantry.
 
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