Risk-free XP for upgrading troops.
That's the only explanation that makes any sense.
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Shall we talk about the paper armors?
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That's the only explanation that makes any sense.
Berzerker Jay
Pretty much. That and increasing prosperity.
WarandPeace
Recruit
I really think everyone should check this video out (start at 6 minutes) and see a single trained knight take out a whole bunch of peasant bandits by himself and then picture this with 10 knights against 100 peasants. I would bet on the knights winning to be honest. Plus revamping the armor system so much, imo, would require a more complicated combat system than just the 4-way attack system that TW has implemented including a form of 'where your hit landed' attack system where depending on where you hit him would determine the damage you do. So stabbing him in the plate-protected chest with a sword would do 0 damage while slashing him carefully at the exposed neck would probably be a one-hit kill.
Actually now that I think about it it could work with the current system. You just need a lot more armor parts to worry about (similar to Exanima) and be able to turn your characters torso so you can aim at where you're hitting at.
Actually now that I think about it it could work with the current system. You just need a lot more armor parts to worry about (similar to Exanima) and be able to turn your characters torso so you can aim at where you're hitting at.
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Berzerker Jay
Dude...I posted that same video to make my point about how a knight can be vulnerable. He gets stabbed repeatedly, concussed, et cetera.
I think most important of all regarding the point you are trying to make, that knight represents the Archangel Michael called down to protect a woman held captive through her amulet. I don't think we're supposed to be emulating Archangels in this game.
Berzerker Jay
Awesome short film, though.
To be fair, we already do pretty well fight like him in the game.
To be fair, we already do pretty well fight like him in the game.
Philozoraptor
Sergeant
I think Falx (corved battanian sword) will kill you in 1-2 hits in the best armor and I guarantee you that unless it would hit it you with very tip IRL, it would not penetrate heaviest armors in the game.
Berzerker Jay
That's because the falx isn't cutting through the armour in that case, and rather is almost chop-piercing through.
I agree the falx is rather poorly represented in the game. I was actually pretty disappointed to find it behaved like any other sword, in spite of its reasonably drastic differences in behaviour and utility.
Hybrid damage models would resolve this well. I'd be happy to see 60-75% of damage from a falx-type weapon dealt out as piercing damage, with this changing relative to its size. A falx-like dagger will have less of this effect than a two-handed, falx-like sword.
Berzerker Jay
I would almost wonder if the falx's design might warrant a small percentage of its damage being considered blunt even. It causes pretty severe trauma while puncturing and slashing when it's heavy.
I tend to think axes in general should have roughly a third of their damage blunt, and the remainder cutting, for comparison.
I tend to think axes in general should have roughly a third of their damage blunt, and the remainder cutting, for comparison.
Naeris
Recruit
those darn looters and their rock improvements
five bucks
Knight at Arms
Just want to throw into the discussion about falxes: almost everything people think they know about two-handed falxes and "rhomphaia" is based on myth, half-truth, and misconceptions.
One-handed falxes were known as sica, and were a real weapon. But two-handed falxes weren't a wonder weapon with amazing cutting abilities, and whether they were even a dedicated weapon of war at all is highly questionable; the only thing we know for sure is they were a farming tool for gathering weeds/brush into an easily cut bundle, similar to scythes and sickles.
If we want to talk physics, putting a curve on a blade doesn't make it inflict vastly different trauma to that of a straight blade of the same length, thickness, and weight.
One-handed falxes were known as sica, and were a real weapon. But two-handed falxes weren't a wonder weapon with amazing cutting abilities, and whether they were even a dedicated weapon of war at all is highly questionable; the only thing we know for sure is they were a farming tool for gathering weeds/brush into an easily cut bundle, similar to scythes and sickles.
If we want to talk physics, putting a curve on a blade doesn't make it inflict vastly different trauma to that of a straight blade of the same length, thickness, and weight.
Putting a curve on a blade changes cutting abilities considerably, wether the edge is outside or inside. That's the reason why curved blades exist. It does no increase anti-armor capabilities, that's true.
However spikes are very effective for armor piercing, and the end of a falx could perhaps act as a kind of spike. I remember tests made by a museum in Zurich, Switzerland, with a 16th c. AD halberd against a 16th c. AD armor and helmet, where the spike at the back of the halberd head penetrated the plate armor with ease while cuts with the axe blade were not very effective.
BTW the theory that the long falxes found were agricultural tools is kind of ... hilarious.
However spikes are very effective for armor piercing, and the end of a falx could perhaps act as a kind of spike. I remember tests made by a museum in Zurich, Switzerland, with a 16th c. AD halberd against a 16th c. AD armor and helmet, where the spike at the back of the halberd head penetrated the plate armor with ease while cuts with the axe blade were not very effective.
BTW the theory that the long falxes found were agricultural tools is kind of ... hilarious.
five bucks
Knight at Arms
That logic can work both ways: some curved blades do exist, but the vast majority of blades throughout history and around the world are either straight, or backwardly curved. The reason? Forward-facing blades don't confer any significant advantage over straight ones. It hits different, sure, but not harder. And yeah my comment was mainly about the armor piercing thing.
Yep. The spike has to have concentrated weight moving in a linear direction behind it, though. A curved tip like that of a Bannerlord Falx just wants to glance off upwards or downwards when it hits something, because it acts like a lever point.
Actually, two-handed, forward-facing falxes being a dedicated weapon of war is also a theory. Since the only depiction of forward-curved two-handed falxes as a weapon is on Trajan's Column, and that depiction is very open to interpretation, but given the context (a massacre of civilians among their wagons) may well be farming tools taken up for self-defense (something which has happened many times in history).
What we know 100% for sure is that falxes are, to this day, used as agricultural tools, and were back then, used all over Europe and even as far as Asia for the purpose of farming. "Falx" is simply the Latin word for "sickle".
Berzerker Jay
Okay, lots of conjecture around the falx, but this is something that has been tested. It's not even a question that it hits differently. You can use it to either hit it with the edge of the blade in which case it tends to cut quite well due to the curve pulling in on what's being cut. More importantly to the claims here, it can be used to thrust just like a lot of other swords but with one difference, that its point thrusts on the chop, giving its 'thrusts' more kinetic energy via the leverage.
If you honestly think you could put that point through plate with a straight blade just the same as a falx, you really need to do some research around that. Skallagrim demonstrates it well in a number of his videos.
If you honestly think you could put that point through plate with a straight blade just the same as a falx, you really need to do some research around that. Skallagrim demonstrates it well in a number of his videos.
Berzerker Jay
Here's an in-depth video of him demonstrating one falx. The edge is weak, but for the purposes of our discussion it shows well how that point is used, and it also shows it relatively easily puncturing a plate helm.
This video is about same thing, but now you can compare that falx to axe and warhammer.
Berzerker Jay
Nice! That's actually the video I was looking for and why I went to Skallagrim. The Falx hits are mostly to the peak of the helm -- a bascinet, I believe? -- and even still they puncture quite easily. A square hit against a broad section of plate would likely puncture even easier.
Definitely appears to apply typical piercing damage in addition to cutting, with the balance between the two depending on how it's used.
Seems like something that could have skill applied somehow, to reflect that if you were to use a falx to counter armour, you'd need the skill to apply your strikes so that the point hits appropriately. Either that or have it algorithmically reflect off the range measurements for the weapons. I can't remember the term for this, but I mean how a weapon does its full damage at a certain point in its swing or thrust -- that would be the point in which the falx applies piercing damage, while not so much otherwise. I think -- (but I don't know) -- that skill expands that optimal range window for the player, so that might work well.
five bucks
Knight at Arms
Note the disclaimer: "Keep in mind the tests are not scientific and the materials not precisely representative of historical armor."
I wouldn't call it a "relatively easy" puncture. The helmet in the video is a perfectly still target at waist height, and the guy is standing at exactly the right distance to hit it with the tip. That's the perfect scenario. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most combatants in Bannerlord and real life aren't paraplegic dwarves. Under normal conditions it would be very difficult to get such a result, because your opponent would have their head higher up, be moving, and might try to get closer to you (which would make it impossible to hit them with the tip of the weapon, since they need to be at exactly the right distance for that to happen).
Even in perfect conditions, the end result for the straight and curved blade is similar if you compare them in the same situation.
The straight blade made a dent that could concuss, but not pierce the skin.
The curved blade made a small puncture that could concuss, but probably not go far enough to pierce skin.
This is what I mean about there being no significant advantage in the cutting capabilities.
On the other hand, me being pedantic aside, I guess I'm fine with the falx having exaggerated differences in piercing ability for the purposes of gameplay and making it feel different.
Antaeus
Squire
Virtually all those blows could potentially unseat a horseman, cause a serious whiplash injury to the neck if unexpected or cause a concussion that might dizzy someone on the spot, knock them out cold, or might not become apparent until migraines start a week later. I can tell you from experience on the receiving end, that even a fist to the temple, with both fist and head padded can knock a person out cold.
Any blow hard enough to dent a helmet, is hard enough to cause a brain or head injury. Concussion is about the brain moving inside the skull, not about the literal trauma to the surface of the head. Motorcycle and bicycle helmets mitigate, but don't prevent concussion injuries in many cases and they have a lot more shock absorbent liner materials than these helmets.
So even without an actual cut injury, a rider in this helmet has a good chance to be 'one hit' to unconsciousness with any significant blow from a bladed weapon of any sort.
That aside... I really don't want to experience an axe blow. Not yesterday. I wonder if in game, this means that blunt injuries (non killing) should be more prevalent, and cut injuries less?
I feel like for example, on horse I kill more people with a glaive than I do with a lance. But I would suspect that should be the opposite. That the glaive while brutal at cutting, should be more of a blunt force weapon as per above when confronted by good armour. The lance on the other hand, as a single point of impact weapon, should probably kill a decent chunk of what it hits at a charge, armour or not.
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five bucks
Knight at Arms
Solid writeup. I agree, no matter if it's curved or straight, if you get hit hard enough with it and the blow connects you could definitely get knocked out immediately or at least concussed.
Also yes to the lance. This guy did a good video on couching technique in Bannerlord's 1000s time period looks like it packs a solid punch
Antaeus
Squire
To be fair... I just did a few tests in game. A swing with along glaive from a mounted rider was doing between 100 and 300 damage. But as I suspected, killed the opponent more often than not - even when heavily armoured.
I then switched to the Vlandian heavy lance, and it was doing up towards 500-700 damage. But killed the opponent far less often than the glaive.
I didn't record the damage locations and someone can correct me because I don't actually know what locations they are on the characters, but I'm assuming that the lance might sometimes be putting all that 700 damage onto a minor hit box like an arm. The glaive with greater length, was more likely to hit multiple or core hit boxes - so it's lesser cut damage was more likely to kill.
Again based on the videos above, and my gut feeling, I think in reality, the glaive is probably more likely to glance off heavy armour, or get tangled in light or loose fabrics, or knock a rider off with impact rather than blade. We've all seen the videos of glaives cutting deer in half when strung up. But I think a speeding rider is a different thing entirely.
But I feel like the developers have the lance about right. It is the most powerful hand held weapon in the game, but has all that power focused on a tiny point. It will one hit any person in any armour if timed right. But one has to have a lot of skill do do it.
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