Information about developments at snowballing problem

[Blood Gryphon]

Update :



1-I checked why Sturgia snow bonus is not working and found reason and fixed. Now Sturgia parties will take 10% speed bonus at snow and all factions will get 10% penalty at snow. Then Stugia will be neutralized it seems did not checked it.

2-Also checked why expensive equipment is not created at towns and fixed that too. As you see in screenshot you will find 100K+ items rarely in markets with 1.5.7, consuming of these items by town itself can be problematic i will check later.

3-As you see in screenshot now we have 40% cavalry bonus instead of 60%, but it seems there is a new bug which shows these multipication bonuses as addition (+40 instead of +x (where x is final speed x 0.4)) but calculation of final speed is right so its only visual bug, I reported it to team.

Spoiler: Screenshot

 

[scarface52]

2-Also checked why expensive equipment is not created at towns and fixed that too. As you see in screenshot you will find 100K+ items rarely in markets with 1.5.7, consuming of these items by town itself can be problematic i will check later.

Did you solve the problem like this thread describes? Because @SadShogun mentioned that they were working on a different solution.

There is a reason behind this, if these items would spawn there would be chance which the cities would buy these (for their own consumption) and bankrupt themselves. We will try to create well defined exceptions for these cases and change the consumption behavior to ignore some of the high priced items while consuming. So the items can spawn nevertheless, and decayed by the recycling system(same one which decays the high priced player-crafted-items) to keep it dynamic.

 

[mexxico]

Did you solve the problem like this thread describes? Because @SadShogun mentioned that they were working on a different solution.

While entering marketplace of town equipments (sword, armor, shield, bow, ...) do not reduce money of town actually. Only trade good outputs reduce town money also shops do not make profit from these non-trade good items too. They are out of workshop profit system since 1.0, maybe you remember when game first released wood workshops and smithies were making 10K daily profit because it was not removed these days. So here we should not check town.gold > output item price while producing equipments. I reported this also @SadShogun too. He knows how this fix is applied. So it is similar to that thread. So sometimes these expensive items will be produced and added to market, higher chance if town has wood workshop / smithy, no relation with prosperity. It was a simple solution. Maybe later we can make it detailed - related with prosperity but no need for now, we have more important problems.

Anyway lets continue from snowballing. Just wanted to inform you.

 

[Flesson19]

Did you solve the problem like this thread describes? Because @SadShogun mentioned that they were working on a different solution.

NVM

 

[sniparsexe]

Stugia and S/N empire are still bad,

Actually, Sturgia and S/N empire isn't bad at all, Khuzait is OP. I made 2 tests recently and Khuzaits didn't declare war on Sturgia (not sure why) and Sturgia didn't lose a single city and managed to take 4-5 cities (didn't count castles)

Update :



1-I checked why Sturgia snow bonus is not working and found reason and fixed. Now Sturgia parties will take 10% speed bonus at snow and all factions will get 10% penalty at snow. Then Stugia will be neutralized it seems did not checked it.

2-Also checked why expensive equipment is not created at towns and fixed that too. As you see in screenshot you will find 100K+ items rarely in markets with 1.5.7, consuming of these items by town itself can be problematic i will check later.

3-As you see in screenshot now we have 40% cavalry bonus instead of 60%, but it seems there is a new bug which shows these multipication bonuses as addition (+40 instead of +x (where x is final speed x 0.4)) but calculation of final speed is right so its only visual bug, I reported it to team.

Spoiler: Screenshot

..you fixed the price thing by yourself? also the snow thing will help Sturgia really well.

 

[Flesson19]

Actually, Sturgia and S/N empire isn't bad at all, Khuzait is OP. I made 2 tests recently and Khuzaits didn't declare war on Sturgia (not sure why) and Sturgia didn't lose a single cities and managed to took 4-5 cities (didn't count castles)

Do you think it has to do with them able to get cav so easily and quickly, that is why I choose a city like Akalat since I know I will get ton of cav so easily

 

[sniparsexe]

Do you think it has to do with them able to get cav so easily and quickly, that is why I choose a city like Akalat since I know I will get ton of cav so easily

Yes, as you probably know Empire is the faction with the least cav (correct me if I'm wrong), and Southern & Northern Empires have border to Khuzaits, and Khuzaits declare war on them first, then they get obliterated. Same for Sturgia, if Khuzaits don't declare war on them, they will live pretty good. If Khuzaits declare war on them, they will get obliterated. Because you know, cavalry bonus and speed. Khuzaits are fast af so they can catch lords easily and they can escape really easily. There are lots of reasons but all of them leads to a single point "they have so many cav"

 

[Flesson19]

Yes, as you probably know Empire is the faction with the least cav (correct me if I'm wrong), and Southern & Northern Empires have border to Khuzaits, and Khuzaits declare war on them first, then they get obliterated. Same for Sturgia, if Khuzaits don't declare war on them, they will live pretty good. If Khuzaits declare war on them, they will get obliterated. Because you know, cavalry bonus and speed. Khuzaits are fast af so they can catch lords easily and they can escape really easily. There are lots of reasons but all of them leads to a single point "they have so many cav"

I have said it over and over on my live streams, the only time when I am outnumbered and worry is when it's khuzuit and having to fight hundreds of them, not sure if they can do it but would love to see them eliminate the T2 cav and make an infantry and get it at T3 like Aserai do, as I've said wish I could mod and change that and test it, T2 cav doesn't seem right

 

[Sarissofoi]

Update :
1-I checked why Sturgia snow bonus is not working and found reason and fixed. Now Sturgia parties will take 10% speed bonus at snow and all factions will get 10% penalty at snow. Then Stugia will be neutralized it seems did not checked it.

2-Also checked why expensive equipment is not created at towns and fixed that too. As you see in screenshot you will find 100K+ items rarely in markets with 1.5.7, consuming of these items by town itself can be problematic i will check later.

3-As you see in screenshot now we have 40% cavalry bonus instead of 60%, but it seems there is a new bug which shows these multipication bonuses as addition (+40 instead of +x (where x is final speed x 0.4)) but calculation of final speed is right so its only visual bug, I reported it to team.

That are really great news.

Anyway I want to mention another source of snowballing.
Its the war loot. I am not sure how exactly Ai loot&profit work(I read somewhere that AI don't need to carry items and sold them - they just get money equivalent on the spot). Thing is winning party get some gold from enemy treasury and also gold from this looted items.
Obviously if one side lose battles - they need to replace troops etc but other side(the winning one) also get large amount of cash from looted treasury and much more important from looted items.
So winning side swim in money when losing one had cash problems.
The biggest problem is that price of items (armor and weapons) are greatly inflated to extremely high values. The upgrading a elite troops(even a mounted one) cost pennies compared to equipment he carry. Or even to rent from cities or castles(castles being really useless here).

In my humble opinion gold should be important factor of war capability. The faction should amass gold in peace time and then expand it in war time.
But there is no really mechanics to resemble that. Making garrisoned troops cost only some percentage of upkeep would help defenders. Making troops get pay raise when being in enemy territory would slow attackers.
But in current situation peace is really hurting economically as rents /caravans/workshops/etc are really not enough to cover for wages compared to loot. I bet even faction suffer from this.
What is important is to nerf the price of items(armor and weapons) 10, 20 or even by 100 times.
Currently I do not need even to plan my expenditures - just slay some bandits or enemy and loot will cover all of it.

The item pricing and loot are really strong factor in whole snowballing effect and I think it shouldn't be avoided.
I hope you look for it.
I bet reducing all prices of equipment by /100 would produce interesting results but even much smaller changes would probably be interesting.
Cheers

 

[lunelune2413]

Yes. For all items it is fixed.

Here is also snowball score table for 1.5.4, 1.5.5, 1.5.6 including all latest added tests and correction from @sniparsexe. We have nearly 20 tests for 1.5.6 and enough. Thanks all. Latest snowball score for 1.5.6 is 60.4

Spoiler: Snowball score table, click on image to see it detailed after opening

Sturgia was actively getting the short end of the stick for the longest time and now they work. Huzzah! Pay raise for Mexxico!

Though it's sad to see that the Khuzaits are still overall too strong and wins almost every time against the Northern and Southern Empires. Eventually I wanna try a Northern Empire run, but even with lower numbers, it would appear that it would be like shooting your own foot.

 

[Oakenlix]

That are really great news.

Anyway I want to mention another source of snowballing.
Its the war loot. I am not sure how exactly Ai loot&profit work(I read somewhere that AI don't need to carry items and sold them - they just get money equivalent on the spot). Thing is winning party get some gold from enemy treasury and also gold from this looted items.
Obviously if one side lose battles - they need to replace troops etc but other side(the winning one) also get large amount of cash from looted treasury and much more important from looted items.
So winning side swim in money when losing one had cash problems.
The biggest problem is that price of items (armor and weapons) are greatly inflated to extremely high values. The upgrading a elite troops(even a mounted one) cost pennies compared to equipment he carry. Or even to rent from cities or castles(castles being really useless here).

In my humble opinion gold should be important factor of war capability. The faction should amass gold in peace time and then expand it in war time.
But there is no really mechanics to resemble that. Making garrisoned troops cost only some percentage of upkeep would help defenders. Making troops get pay raise when being in enemy territory would slow attackers.
But in current situation peace is really hurting economically as rents /caravans/workshops/etc are really not enough to cover for wages compared to loot. I bet even faction suffer from this.
What is important is to nerf the price of items(armor and weapons) 10, 20 or even by 100 times.
Currently I do not need even to plan my expenditures - just slay some bandits or enemy and loot will cover all of it.

The item pricing and loot are really strong factor in whole snowballing effect and I think it shouldn't be avoided.
I hope you look for it.
I bet reducing all prices of equipment by /100 would produce interesting results but even much smaller changes would probably be interesting.
Cheers

This is a great point. Winning battles indeed gives too much money, at least for the player when you sell the loot. If winning battles wasn't so profitable, the winning side wouldn't snowball as much I think.

 

[mexxico]

This is a great point. Winning battles indeed gives too much money, at least for the player when you sell the loot. If winning battles wasn't so profitable, the winning side wouldn't snowball as much I think.

Actually I also reduced loot income & mercenary contract income 15% at 1.5.7 did not mentioned it in previous post. Its a minor reduce but will make things a bit better. Also as you said loot income was huge compared other income resources (fief taxes - caravan income - workshop income)

However players can complain about it because we are nerfing things which players already get used to but this was obvious they were OP. Still crafting exploit is not fixed unfortunately. I have no control over these parts so cannot fix.

Still of course winner side take good amount of loot and plunder money (10% of money of lost leaders). Nothing to do at this point this is the basic of game.

Also imo high tier item prices should be lowered. There are items for 100-200-300K. This was normal when game was not balanced but currently making 100Ks is not easy as old days if you do not make crafting exploit.

Here is 1.5.7 expected value of loot per killed troop formula, items drop according to that expected formula, still 10000 value item can drop of course but expected total value of dropped items are determined by this formula. I lowered 0.5 x from 0.6 x here.
(you should divide formula value to 4 because of high trade penalty at equipments,
so if you kill 10 looter (level-6) expected loot value you will get is (10 x (0.5 x (50 x 6 x 6))) / 4 = 107, according to old formula it was 10 x (0.6 x (50 x 6 x 6)) / 4 = 129)

 

[Dabos37]

Actually I also reduced loot income & mercenary contract income 15% at 1.5.7 did not mentioned it in previous post. Its a minor reduce but will make things a bit better. Also as you said loot income was huge compared other income resources (fief taxes - caravan income - workshop income)

However players can complain about it because we are nerfing things but this was obvious they were OP. Still crafting exploit is in game unfortunately. I have no control over these parts so cannot fix.

Still of course winner side take loot and plunder money. Nothing to do at this point this is the basic of game.

Also imo high tier item prices should be lowered. There are items for 100-200-300K. This was normal when game was not balanced but currently making 100Ks is not easy as old days if you do not make crafting exploit.

Thanks for all great changes. Loot is insanely OP currently for sure, especially because we can carry tons of equipment without any downside. So we can defeat 5 lords in a row and then go to the market and get 40K or so, just seeling equipment.

AI being too easy to defeat due to ranged units being OP is part of the problem, but not related with this thread.

By the way, in my current campaign with 40% cavalry speed bonus, I am noticing that caravans are maybe working worse and getting captured more often.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Thanks for all great changes. Loot is insanely OP currently for sure, especially because we can carry tons of equipment without any downside. So we can defeat 5 lords in a row and then go to the market and get 40K or so, just seeling equipment.

AI being too easy to defeat due to ranged units being OP is part of the problem, but not related with this thread.

By the way, in my current campaign with 40% cavalry speed bonus, I am noticing that caravans are maybe working worse and getting captured more often.

It is definitely super OP, I always have to stop by multiple towns just to sell all my loot after 1 or 2 army fights.

I'd be cool with caravans getting their own speed bonus to make sure they aren't slaughtered. No need to try and balance the two together (normal parties and caravans).

 

[Sarissofoi]

That is all and good but the problem is contrast between rising and upgrading soldiers(pretty low even with warhorses) to a cost of weapon and armors they wield.
Looting also grant mostly a trash items that are good for straight selling out. And its the low tier items that grant main cash flow - a trash.
I miss Warband times where actually you could loot something useful from enemy and good quality armor didn't cost arms and legs. Decent one was pretty affordable and player could actually outfit himself and companions before he lead top tier army.
Currently in my recent save I rode around with 80 V Tier troops and still have some cloth armor(same for my companions)
Ridiculous.

 

[Dabos37]

Also imo high tier item prices should be lowered. There are items for 100-200-300K. This was normal when game was not balanced but currently making 100Ks is not easy as old days if you do not make crafting exploit.

Here is 1.5.7 expected value of loot per killed troop formula, items drop according to that expected formula, still 10000 value item can drop of course but expected total value of dropped items are determined by this formula. I lowered 0.5 x from 0.6 x here.
(you should divide formula value to 4 because of high trade penalty at equipments,
so if you kill 10 looter (level-6) expected loot value you will get is (10 x (0.5 x (50 x 6 x 6))) / 4 = 107, according to old formula it was 10 x (0.6 x (50 x 6 x 6)) / 4 = 129)

I have missed this part you have added later. 100% agree with overpriced equipment. We have to pay 500K for highest tier chest armor in 1.5.6 which is insane. 300K is still too expensive but at least better than 500K.

Would be great if highest tier equipment would cost 100K as much, but for some reason this is not happening, even when most of threads talking about this show that most of people (100% of people I think) find current prices over exaggerated.

 

[RandyOglestein]

Maybe a return of limited inventory space like Warband? The current system only places an inventory limit in regards to weight and speed, but still allows an unlimited number of spaces. I think limiting actual inventory spaces that items can take up would be a logical handicap to both player and AI battle loot, and would therefore limit snowballing to a small degree. I'd still keep the party weight capacity and speed affects though.

Could lend more significance to the Steward tree as well where a perk or multiple perks could increase inventory spaces. Maybe also add 1 inventory space per 5 soldiers or something? Just doesn't make sense to me that a party of 5 guys could have 100 horses and 5000 items without any real downside

 

[guiskj]

Mexxico is a BEAST. The side effect of his crazy developer output is that he is quickly making a mod I made for myself completely unnecessary

 

[GrandiousBrain]

Yeah, I agree, that's why I said that I wouldn't add these bonuses in-game. Actually, I'm not sure if its the case in game, but I think I red in some post that IA lords don't get loot after battle but get the money equivalent instantly. Well,IF they have to carry this loot into town first, THAN sell it, and if the loot will slow them don conciderably it might actually help reduce khuzait army speed a lot I think. Just a though that came to my mind after reading your answer. Right now Khuzait can roam through enemy territory with no effort, defeating weaker parties, raiding villages and taking huge amount of loot-money, which then turn them ridiculously rich. Slowing them down by loot after they win a considerable battle might get IA more time to prepare, get reinfocements etc.

It was a common strategy aginast Tatar raids in XVI/XVII century Poland. They let Tatars do their pludering. And when they got slowed down by loot, polish armies hunted them down.

Yes this should be a thing where AI/NPC lords:
1) Also have carry loot limit same as player and then when they reach that limit they should like eighter create on the spot caravans out of its onw troops that will then go to nearest friendly towns and sell not needed loot and if needed buy more food for the army.That way it will sorta stall the main army or make it more carfull wich army/fief to attack bcs numbers are smaller due to creating quick caravan to sell loot/*by food and would need to wait until that caravan made of its soldiers comes back to the party.
2)Have same carry loot limit as player but instead of creating caravans of its own party it insetad is sorat forced to go back after few raids/attacks bcs loot will fill the inevntory and woudl force army party to turn back to nearest friendly towns/fiefs and sell that loot and that way so to say can prevent slowbaling or give bit more in game time for attacked/weakened factio to recoup and bulk itself even if it will be just temporary relief of like few hours/1-2 in game days depending how far enemy army is from the nearest friendly town.

 

[D0c1]

Actually I also reduced loot income & mercenary contract income 15% at 1.5.7 did not mentioned it in previous post. Its a minor reduce but will make things a bit better. Also as you said loot income was huge compared other income resources (fief taxes - caravan income - workshop income)

However players can complain about it because we are nerfing things which players already get used to but this was obvious they were OP. Still crafting exploit is not fixed unfortunately. I have no control over these parts so cannot fix.

Still of course winner side take good amount of loot and plunder money (10% of money of lost leaders). Nothing to do at this point this is the basic of game.

Also imo high tier item prices should be lowered. There are items for 100-200-300K. This was normal when game was not balanced but currently making 100Ks is not easy as old days if you do not make crafting exploit.

Here is 1.5.7 expected value of loot per killed troop formula, items drop according to that expected formula, still 10000 value item can drop of course but expected total value of dropped items are determined by this formula. I lowered 0.5 x from 0.6 x here.
(you should divide formula value to 4 because of high trade penalty at equipments,
so if you kill 10 looter (level-6) expected loot value you will get is (10 x (0.5 x (50 x 6 x 6))) / 4 = 107, according to old formula it was 10 x (0.6 x (50 x 6 x 6)) / 4 = 129)

please keep in mind that loot is the only real source of income currently. other sources give peanuts.

if you want to nerf it, you need to buff some other income source. imo, taxes should be buffed significantly. in warband, one town was enough to cover a late game party wages.
if you have built enterprises all over calradia (as you should), you would've been set for the entire game.
currently, not only there is a limit to workshops, but their ownership is taken from us when the faction that has our shop goes to war with us.
so in bannerlord:
- much less income than warband (barely supports your party unless you own a super high prosperity town)
- not constant/safe income

edit:
if you lower item prices significantly, loot will give peanuts too.