Information about developments at snowballing problem

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Sarissofoi

Veteran
M&BWBWF&S
I will provide some options for nerfing Khuzaits:
a)change theri troop tree into spearmen that branch into spear infantry and mounted lancer and foot archer(instead of mounted tribal archer) that branch into foot archer and horse archer
that would remove easy 2nd tier horse unit from their roster and that would reduce both their global map mobility and auto calculated prowess
b)go back to asymmetrical troop tree(like in warband) make their infantry top at Tier 3(or 4), lancers top at tier 4 and only horse archer go to top 5 tier
that would reduce their combat ability too(I guess)
c) both.
Easy solutions anyone can do it with Notepad++.
 

geala

Sergeant at Arms
...
- Why Khuzaits always start the campaign being stronger than NE and SE? They could start being a bit weaker, it won't change much but they will start lossing the war against NE and it could make snowballing slower. Decreasing some Khuzatis clans tier could be an easy way to achive this.

...

I had an interesting experience. In my current (1.5.5) campaign I made NE disappearing, I gave the two big clans to WE and the rest to SE (because it fits the territories). So WE started with 9 cities, SE with 10 cities. WE started at war with Aserai and Sturgia, SE at war with Khuzaits. I was quite surprised that after about 100 days Khuzaits had conquered Amprela and Myzea while losing just some castles. The new SE, or better Eastern Empire, fares better against Khuzaits than the vanilla 6 cities SE, but it is still astoundingly weak.

I'm a bit clueless what to do, except maybe trying the same in 1.5.6 (which I cannot play because some mods I need aren't updated yet).
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I had an interesting experience. In my current (1.5.5) campaign I made NE disappearing, I gave the two big clans to WE and the rest to SE (because it fits the territories). So WE started with 9 cities, SE with 10 cities. WE started at war with Aserai and Sturgia, SE at war with Khuzaits. I was quite surprised that after about 100 days Khuzaits had conquered Amprela and Myzea while losing just some castles. The new SE, or better Eastern Empire, fares better against Khuzaits but it is still astoundingly weak.

I'm a bit clueless what to do, except maybe trying the same in 1.5.6 (which I cannot play because some mods I need aren't updated yet).

You really need 1.5.6 in case you want to deal with snowballing. There are tons of developments in this version concerning overall kingdoms survivability, come backs, etc.

After having 1.5.6, removing or reducing cavalry bonus speed as much as possible is the way to go to make Khuzaits less OP. The problem is that removing or reducing this bonus too much is not a great idea because it brings other issues. So our only option is waiting for 1.5.7 where things will get a bit better but still not completely fixed, and then run some tests and try new approaches.

By the way, does someone know how to modify AI lords templates? I would like to run some tests modifying what I suggested before.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
By the way, does someone know how to modify AI lords templates? I would like to run some tests modifying what I suggested before.

The party templates they get for free?

partyTemplates.xml in Modules\SandBox\ModuleData

It is very self-explanatory from there.

I am playing with asymmetrical troop trees right now.

I mean run a few tests -- 20 years, no player intervention -- then add up the settlements each faction has. You need more than one because there is a lot of variance possible between them.
 

geala

Sergeant at Arms
You really need 1.5.6 in case you want to deal with snowballing. There are tons of developments in this version concerning overall kingdoms survivability, come backs, etc.

After having 1.5.6, removing or reducing cavalry bonus speed as much as possible is the way to go to make Khuzaits less OP. The problem is that removing or reducing this bonus too much is not a great idea because it brings other issues. So our only option is waiting for 1.5.7 where things will get a bit better but still not completely fixed, and then run some tests and try new approaches.

By the way, does someone know how to modify AI lords templates? I would like to run some tests modifying what I suggested before.

It was actually less about snowballing. If a faction with 6 cities fights against a faction with 10 cities, I would expect some snowballing against the 6 city guys, not the other way round. So there is too few snowballing in the game! :mrgreen:

Maybe I can skip 1.5.6 and wait for 1.5.7. :smile:
 

cadadr

Recruit
Couldn't also making them terrible at anywhere but the steppes help with the problem? I.e. Their cultural bonus is ineffective in forests and marshes?

Also sieges should take longer for them. IMHO cultural bonusses should be countered with cultural debuffs.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
The party templates they get for free?

partyTemplates.xml in Modules\SandBox\ModuleData

It is very self-explanatory from there.

Thanks mate.


@mexxico I think I have detected something really weird with Khuzaits. I have added tons of elite Cataphracs in AI lords party templates, and removed the Khuzaits cultural bonus, but for some weird reason Khuzait parties are still faster. Please check this:

(Khuzait party speed was 5.6 and now 5.5 after removing Khuzaits cultural bonus)





Save game (I was using cheats to teletransport so all parties should be the same in thew save game):

 
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D0c1

Knight at Arms
Thanks mate.


@mexxico I think I have detected something really weird with Khuzaits. I have added tons of elite Cataphracs in AI lords party templates, and removed the Khuzaits cultural bonus, but for some weird reason Khuzait parties are still faster. Please check this:

(Khuzait party speed was 5.6 and now 5.5 after removing Khuzaits cultural bonus)





Save game (I was using cheats to teletransport so all parties should be the same in thew save game):

photo 1
14 cav
32 horse archers
46 total horse troops
113 total troops
46÷113=0.407
0.407*100%=40.7% horse troops

second photo
30 cavalry
7 horse archers
37 horse troops
130 total troops
37÷130=0.284
0.284*100%=28.4% horse troops
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
photo 1
14 cav
32 horse archers
46 total horse troops
113 total troops
46÷113=0.407
0.407*100%=40.7% horse troops

second photo
30 cavalry
7 horse archers
37 horse troops
130 total troops
37÷130=0.284
0.284*100%=28.4% horse troops

Ups, you are right, for some reason I read “archer” instead of Horse Archers 😞. I was happy thinking that I had found a bug but AI am blind xD.
 
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Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Easy way to do that?

Easiest way:
campaign.set_main_party_attackable 0
campaign.move_time_forward 40320
campaign.speed 20

(Not sure of the last console command, on phone atm)

It will run for twenty years on the dot. Then do whatever else while things play out. When it is done, count each faction's holdings: two for towns, one for castles.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Ok, I have been checking a bit the code (I am really bad at this, so do not trsut at 100% what I am saying), and as far I am seeing, Kingdoms' parties use the MBPartyTemplate id="kingdom_hero_party_KINGDOM_template" > in the partyTemplates.xml for initial army compositions (when we start a new campaign), and also use this template for re-spawning after defeats (if I am understanding this correctly, lords get a percent of units from this template). So modifying the templates could help but not really much because granting 100% cavalry units in this template for the Empire, it would means that the initial Empire parties when creating a new campaign would be 90-100% composed of cavalry units. Anyway, if someone is interested on this, here you can check the Empire and Khuzait templates:

<MBPartyTemplate id="kingdom_hero_party_empire_template" >
<stacks>
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="16" max_value="16" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_recruit" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="8" max_value="8" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_infantryman" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="4" max_value="4" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_equite" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_heavy_horseman" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="1" max_value="1" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_cataphract" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_archer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="4" max_value="4" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_trained_infantryman" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_veteran_infantryman" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="1" max_value="1" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_legionary" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_infantryman" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="8" max_value="8" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_archer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="4" max_value="4" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_trained_archer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_archer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="1" max_value="1" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_trained_archer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="4" max_value="4" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_crossbowman" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.imperial_sergeant_crossbowman" />

<MBPartyTemplate id="kingdom_hero_party_khuzait_template" >
<stacks>
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="16" max_value="16" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_nomad" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="8" max_value="8" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_tribal_warrior" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="4" max_value="4" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_raider" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_lancer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="1" max_value="1" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_heavy_lancer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="3" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_horse_archer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="1" max_value="1" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_heavy_horse_archer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="8" max_value="8" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_hunter" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="4" max_value="5" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_archer" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="1" max_value="1" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_marksman" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="4" max_value="4" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_spearman" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="2" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_spear_infantry" />
<PartyTemplateStack min_value="1" max_value="2" troop="NPCCharacter.khuzait_darkhan" />
 

Sarissofoi

Veteran
M&BWBWF&S
Easiest way:
campaign.set_main_party_attackable 0
campaign.move_time_forward 40320
campaign.speed 20

(Not sure of the last console command, on phone atm)

It will run for twenty years on the dot. Then do whatever else while things play out. When it is done, count each faction's holdings: two for towns, one for castles.
And there is me leaving Bannerlord running when I go to work. Got my first result.
Do I need mod or I can just modify some config?
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
And there is me leaving Bannerlord running when I go to work. Got my first result.
Do I need mod or I can just modify some config?
When in game hit "alt" and "~" to activate the config window and then first type in

config.cheat_mode 1

To activate cheats and allow the next three lines of code to work

campaign.set_main_party_attackable 0
campaign.move_time_forward 40320
campaign.multiply_campaign_speed 20

Edit: nice catch @Sarissofoi
 
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Sarissofoi

Veteran
M&BWBWF&S
When in game hit "alt" and "~" to activate the config window and then first type in

config.cheat_mode 1

To activate cheats and allow the next three lines of code to work

campaign.set_main_party_attackable 0
campaign.move_time_forward 40320
campaign.speed 20
Thanks mate. The last command is
campaign.multiply_campaign_speed

I would also recommend to use this
campaign.create_player_kingdom

to make your kingdom so you can check kingdoms troop counts.
 
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Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Do you know if there is an easy way to know how much days kingdoms have been at war/peace during a campaign?

While waiting 1.5.7, I am making some runs without cavalry speed bonus and while Khuzaits are not OP anymore, they are still one of the strongest kingdoms. I am noticing that Khuzait is probably the only kingdom which has peace times pretty often, while Aserai, NE, SE and Sturgia are pretty much at war with someone 100% of the time.

The result of this is Khuzaits constantly ganking other kingdoms in 2v1 wars, while they are rarely involved in unfavorable wars.
 
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mexxico

Sergeant Knight
While waiting 1.5.7, I am making some runs without cavalry speed bonus and while Khuzaits are not OP anymore, they are still one of the strongest kingdoms. I am noticing that Khuzait is probably the only kingdom which has peace times pretty often, while Aserai, NE, SE and Sturgia are pretty much at war with someone 100% of the time.

The result of this is Khuzaits constantly ganking other kingdoms in 2v1 wars, while they are rarely involved in unfavorable wars.

Today during examining war peace codes I see that factions evaluate enemy settlements by only their prosperity. Basics of these codes are not mine I am just going over them since 1.5.1 (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/diplomacy-developments.429850/) to make war / peace declerations more logical which also effects snowballing positively. I see too many weird things since going over these codes and fixed some. This only caring prosperity as a value measurement is another problem which causes factions to decleare more wars towards Empire factions because of their high prosperity towns compared others. Okay prosperity is something important but caring only prosperity without any addition make things worse. Enemy settlements should be counted as X + prosperity instead of directly using prosperity otherwise if a faction have 6 towns with 4000 prosperity has a value of 24000 while Khuzaits have 6 towns with 3000 prosperity has a value of 18000. So Khuzaits attract other facitons less and they are attacked less similarly Aserai / Sturgia too also castles are nearly not counted because their maximum prosperity is mostly 1000. If a faction has bigger prosperity / strength ratio generally they are attacked more. I will make this calculation (prosperity * 0.25 + (town -> 2000 , castle -> 1000)) per each fief. I do not know if I can add this fix to 1.5.7 or not because its testes are started.
 
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Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Today during examining war peace codes I see that factions evaluate enemy settlements by only their prosperity. Basics of these codes are not mine I am just going over them since 1.5.1 (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/diplomacy-developments.429850/) to make war / peace declerations more logical which also effects snowballing positively. I see too many weird things since going over these codes and fixed some. This only caring prosperity as a value measurement is another problem which causes factions to decleare more wars towards Empire factions because of their high prosperity towns compared others. Okay prosperity is something important but caring only prosperity without any addition make things worse. Enemy settlements should be counted as X + prosperity instead of directly using prosperity otherwise if a faction have 6 towns with 4000 prosperity has a value of 24000 while Khuzaits have 6 towns with 3000 prosperity has a value of 18000. So Khuzaits attract other facitons less and they are attacked less similarly Aserai / Sturgia too also castles are nearly not counted because their maximum prosperity is mostly 1000. If a faction has bigger prosperity / strength ratio generally they are attacked more. I will make this calculation (prosperity * 0.25 + (town -> 2000 , castle -> 1000)) per each fief. I do not know if I can add this fix to 1.5.7 or not because its testes are started.

Awsome! Thanks. I have been noticing that Empire kingdoms are involved in tons of wars but did not now the reason. Now this makes more sense.
 
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