Discussion about cavalry balance and knock downs

[Forsee]

Light Inf throwable spam has to safe the balance.

Anyway it's worse than heavy inf throwable spam
I mean look at most faction's light inf, they are usually dying from a single bow headshot, their shields cannot protect from leg shots, their weapon is worse and so on...
And if meta comes to this, heavy inf would be in a really bad spot cause they wouldnt be able to kill horses, to catch running archers and to make crossfires

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Anyway it's worse than heavy inf throwable spam
I mean look at most faction's light inf, they are usually dying from a single bow headshot, their shields cannot protect from leg shots, their weapon is worse and so on...
And if meta comes to this, heavy inf would be in a really bad spot cause they wouldnt be able to kill horses, to catch running archers and to make crossfires

I completely agree. The good cavalry moves slowly inside the teamfight and stabs everyones back. Thats the only szenario where a spear player can reach and rear them. But they want to disable rears for low damage stabs so there will be no counter from inf to slow moving cav.

 

[TheBard]

I completely agree. The good cavalry moves slowly inside the teamfight and stabs everyones back. Thats the only szenario where a spear player can reach and rear them. But they want to disable rears for low damage stabs so there will be no counter from inf to slow moving cav.

I don't even understand why Spears need to be so abysmal sometimes. I was playing spearman before the rear changes and it was quite often a gamble, going 60% in favor of the cav because of the nature how spears work, how long they are and how good certain cave are at outranging or maximizing their range. Going back to the old system gives me spine chills.

If consensus is that throwing should not be the first choice to stop cav, why do spears get nerfed? Cavalry is already top score all the times in competitive matches and on public, so I'd say they are fine the way they are right now... Ghazi of Divine Masters was able to stomp so hard with his rider that he was player of the week twice. He is an excellent player, not gonna lie, but it proves that cavalry is not broken.

Well, maybe Apri is right and:

Light Inf throwable spam has to safe the balance.

I can just hope this won't be a bigger meme than in pre 1.5

 

[Forsee]

Another problem is that they greatly reduced throwing's damage. Most of javelin perks are now light javelins, which deal less damage. Franceskas and throwing axes nerf gives me a smile, they are now like that:

Vlandian Throwing Axe: Damage is decreased from 113 to 34
Sturgia Throwing Axe: Damage is decreased from 90 to 34

Jav's damage got nerfed too, empire will only have 1 or 2 pilas on start cause noone will spam menavs or their peasants just to get these pilas.

Archers will now just ignore throwings, if an axe flies at you, you just don't give a **** cause it will deal only like 25dmg.
In fight you can only throw something on horse 1 time usually, cause the horse player will quickly ride away or the enemy inf will force you to switch to melee, so the stack count buff won't really help against cav I think, same works with archers, if you see an enemy cav coming around the corner you usually have only 1 shot until you have to switch to your sword, so the shooting speed buff doesn't do much.

I really see no reliable damage sources to the horses next patch.

 

[Mushbeast]

Maybe more classes should get the choice of a pike to help deal with cavalry if throwing weapons will be less plentiful. It seems like most factions and classes for that matter are completely helpless to cavalry with the weak, short spears that most get.
I'm personally happy that we'll have less throwing weapons but I can't talk from a Skirmish point of view, but javelins being the go-to choice for anti-cav over a long spear doesn't make much sense to me. Spears themselves really need to be buffed at some point though.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Choice of a pike to help deal with cavalry

Bruh........
The only things the pike helps you with is getting killed.

 

[TheBard]

Another problem is that they greatly reduced throwing's damage. Most of javelin perks are now light javelins, which deal less damage. Franceskas and throwing axes nerf gives me a smile, they are now like that:

Vlandian Throwing Axe: Damage is decreased from 113 to 34
Sturgia Throwing Axe: Damage is decreased from 90 to 34

Jav's damage got nerfed too, empire will only have 1 or 2 pilas on start cause noone will spam menavs or their peasants just to get these pilas.

Archers will now just ignore throwings, if an axe flies at you, you just don't give a **** cause it will deal only like 25dmg.
In fight you can only throw something on horse 1 time usually, cause the horse player will quickly ride away or the enemy inf will force you to switch to melee, so the stack count buff won't really help against cav I think, same works with archers, if you see an enemy cav coming around the corner you usually have only 1 shot until you have to switch to your sword, so the shooting speed buff doesn't do much.

I really see no reliable damage sources to the horses next patch.

So you say it goes to pre 1.5 again?

 

[Rangah]

I'd rather have spears be able to oneshot horses than keep this throwing spam around. The entire infantry DPS being based on throwables is anti-fun and I don't see how people enjoy this.
Especially the oneshot meme throwables like pila, ash throwing spear, franceska etc - how does anyone find those things being in the game fun? Again, instead of keeping them around because currently they are supposedly the only counter for archers and horses, look for other solutions and stop turning this game into a oneshot weapon meme fest. This goes for 2handers and glaives, etc., too, but that's a rant for another time.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

I'd rather have spears be able to oneshot horses than keep this throwing spam around. The entire infantry DPS being based on throwables is anti-fun and I don't see how people enjoy this.
Especially the oneshot meme throwables like pila, ash throwing spear, franceska etc - how does anyone find those things being in the game fun? Again, instead of keeping them around because currently they are supposedly the only counter for archers and horses, look for other solutions and stop turning this game into a oneshot weapon meme fest. This goes for 2handers and glaives, etc., too, but that's a rant for another time.

I really understand your point. Whats even worse about the oneshot throwables is that hitting them is a big lottery. So you either get this round deciding luck oneshot, or your perk is completely wasted.

But again, Cav and Archers are really overtuned, I think I dont have to mention why. Infantry just needs overtuned features aswell to keep up. Let it be very sensible rears from big angles and low speeds or big damaging throwables. Now that we remove the only answers we might need to significantly nerf cav and archers aswell.

I mean we live in a world where a pike is no answer to horses and a shield does not protect you from archers. Which is almost fine, as long as you let us have throwables.

 

[Hax.]

Unpopular opinion, I think that Cav is at a really good spot right now. I haven't had any negative experiences regarding the bumping at all since the last updates. I'm really starting to think that people are trying to over-perfectionise things, because they get the opportunity to do so here. There will allways be something to complain about, no matter what will get changed on cavalry.

I disagree. Cav is as bad as usual. No matter what game mode you chose you will always find someone dominating the whole match just because of that damn horses and ridiclous damage he is dealing. It's superior to everything, you get 3-400 hp additional HP while your hitbox will be greatly reducedt, on top of that you will get a huge damage boost, both in bumping and cutting/stabbing. TDM matches against heavily cav factions are everything but fun. There has to be profound changes on cav. Either make spears deadly as hell or simply increase the cost of horses, making them despawn or/and set a general limit on available cav.

 

[Mushbeast]

Bruh........
The only things the pike helps you with is getting killed.

I reckon the pike is the best spear personally. I always choose it when I get the chance.

Of course I could see it being utterly useless in skirmish where you'd likely get targeted down by archers/throwables instantly, and have a real bad time trying to get hits in on shielded infantry. But it's the only spear that can really put out damage in my experience, and you can absolutely delete cavalry with it.

Saying that, I've been practicing with it since the game released and even now I still would say it, and all other spears, need some buffs or better mechanics.

 

[Rangah]

But again, Cav and Archers are really overtuned, I think I dont have to mention why. Infantry just needs overtuned features aswell to keep up.

But then go the other way and push for a cav and archer nerf instead!! This mentality that "we need broken thing x to counter broken thing y" is what will be the final nail in the coffin for MP.

Making everything equally broken does not make a fun game.

 

[hoonii]

I'd rather have spears be able to oneshot horses than keep this throwing spam around. The entire infantry DPS being based on throwables is anti-fun and I don't see how people enjoy this.
Especially the oneshot meme throwables like pila, ash throwing spear, franceska etc - how does anyone find those things being in the game fun? Again, instead of keeping them around because currently they are supposedly the only counter for archers and horses, look for other solutions and stop turning this game into a oneshot weapon meme fest. This goes for 2handers and glaives, etc., too, but that's a rant for another time.

****in +1 mate

Another problem is that they greatly reduced throwing's damage. Most of javelin perks are now light javelins, which deal less damage. Franceskas and throwing axes nerf gives me a smile, they are now like that:

Vlandian Throwing Axe: Damage is decreased from 113 to 34
Sturgia Throwing Axe: Damage is decreased from 90 to 34

Jav's damage got nerfed too, empire will only have 1 or 2 pilas on start cause noone will spam menavs or their peasants just to get these pilas.

Archers will now just ignore throwings, if an axe flies at you, you just don't give a **** cause it will deal only like 25dmg.
In fight you can only throw something on horse 1 time usually, cause the horse player will quickly ride away or the enemy inf will force you to switch to melee, so the stack count buff won't really help against cav I think, same works with archers, if you see an enemy cav coming around the corner you usually have only 1 shot until you have to switch to your sword, so the shooting speed buff doesn't do much.

I really see no reliable damage sources to the horses next patch.

YOU would want a nerf for throwables as well if you were a cav main and get 120 damage to YOUR LEG from 20 METERS far away and instantly die even though you're blocking the right direction. With the stupid accuracy of the throwables(especially those damned axes) its nearly %90 chance that you will hit the rider with every left click, you don't even need to hold your ****ing throw or something it will just snap right into you, even if it visually doesn't contact you you will still get hit. One of the reasons couch lance got so lame and fell out of meta is the ****ing throwables, couch lancing a guy with franceskas or pila, unless he's in melee, is a death sentence.

 

[WhiteEyedSh4rk]

I disagree. Cav is as bad as usual. No matter what game mode you chose you will always find someone dominating the whole match just because of that damn horses and ridiclous damage he is dealing. It's superior to everything, you get 3-400 hp additional HP while your hitbox will be greatly reducedt, on top of that you will get a huge damage boost, both in bumping and cutting/stabbing. TDM matches against heavily cav factions are everything but fun. There has to be profound changes on cav. Either make spears deadly as hell or simply increase the cost of horses, making them despawn or/and set a general limit on available cav.

Have you played Bannerlord recently? Horses literally die with one axe throw and spears became very dangerous. Furthermore don't forget that its the most expensive troop, its supposed to be slightly stronger.

 

[Einarcf]

How about giving us hooked spears, that can dismount rider?

 

[Mushbeast]

How about giving us hooked spears, that can dismount rider?

That would be elite. Just make sure they're not too long so there's a good amount of risk-reward going on, and this could give you a reason to actually aim for the rider rather than rearing the horse. Would need to be thoroughly tested to make sure it's not just straight up annoying though.

 

[Einarcf]

That would be elite. Just make sure they're not too long so there's a good amount of risk-reward going on, and this could give you a reason to actually aim for the rider rather than rearing the horse. Would need to be thoroughly tested to make sure it's not just straight up annoying though.

I believe it is in SP already. Does anyone know its stats, if there are varients? Don't play much SP.

 

[Rangah]

How about giving us hooked spears, that can dismount rider?

...

This mentality that "we need broken thing x to counter broken thing y" is what will be the final nail in the coffin for MP.

 

[Mushbeast]

This mentality that "we need broken thing x to counter broken thing y" is what will be the final nail in the coffin for MP.

I think if properly implemented it wouldn't be OP. Of course it's mainly food for thought and should be tested thoroughly before implemented, but it could work out fairer than simply increasing the damage from spears. I'll always advocate for stronger spears though

I agree with your statement in general though.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

How about giving us hooked spears, that can dismount rider?

this idea is even 10x worse than crushtrough