So how do we like the new leveling in 1.4.3? I'm not sure but it 'feels' better anyways. Gonna show some MCs

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

You can easily get to level 30 if you put 5 focus into smithing and 10 points to endurance and then get smithing to 330. The previous system rewarded little gains in many different skills, while the new one rewards focusing on a small number of skills. And yeah, the new one works much better for me. Anything that levels my character faster is appreciated.

My character

So how are skills going on that character? Is the learning rate still okay for you? Because as I see you're 30, but you skills (other then smithing) are pretty mediocre. Like what's you learning rate for riding, bow and trade, for comparisons.

 

[Telyon]

Jesus, that learning rate must be atrocious. He's nuked his build by smithing on his character and not a companion.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I find that Stewardship levels up just playing the game. The others are fairly fast if you know how. The ones that I find painfully slow are medicine and engineering.

My companion engineer when from 80 to 81 and a half from an entire siege of building camp, 4 trebs, destroying 4+ catapult and the walls.
There aren't enough fiefs in the game to build that skill up. I think something wrong though because I kinda remember trying it in earlier versions and it seemed a little faster, but still sucky.
Stewart is good, I like it on MC usually but Nasun has a good amount so using him give a nice party boost. He's stats are messed up though so it's maybe not likely to get him the fp to level it up more.
Medicine is so slow, but all I got in my game is a 62 skill willow bark wanderer with wonky stats, so **** I guess I'm doing it.
I wish they would improve engineering and medicine speeds and give more way to raise them. I feel like INT would be the best skill group if we could actually get these high on the MC, sense only you MC has the ability to be all 3 rolls and choose to have high int.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

After painfully leveling medicine to 102, on day 372 looks who has recently pop'd into my world!

A wonderful healer with 120 skills and the FP to keep raising! And he's lower level then me so it will be even easier to raise in on him.
The only bad thing about his is the docor's oath perk which can be bad in certain siege conditions if you retreat, because the wounded garrison will just recover as you do.

 

[Sparticulous]

probably worth just getting a companion to do those for you. thats what I usually do.

Yeah and have a companion do scouting. No reason to waste points in any of those

 

[Sparticulous]

Neither did I at the beginning. The new system is better than previous patches. I think it still stalls out, but at a later level, and still without enough points to really excel in more than one or two skills. What level have you plateaued at? Are you able to make your character good in all the skills you want to specialize in? For me it was around level 23 when my experience gain made it hard to progress further, and I maxed out only one skill, got two more to 100, and was between 25 and 30 in others.

I mean i havent been able to play 1.43 too much but so far, im at lvl 19 with 251 smithing, 66 charm, and 87 steward as the highest ones. So I guess i will probably run i to your problem once i go along trying out the beta

 

[shiffd]

I like that a few stray skill points doesn't bloat your level too much. However, the growing amount of skill exp each higher skill level requires means you still get leveled up (and thus slowed down) pretty darn fast. I'm still trying to figure out if this new system can net me a stronger MC.

Here's what I've got at 260ish day on 1.4.3 I a 'little' smithing because I haven't done it since April and it really blasted my level through the roof. I think I can still get my main skills of riding and bow to 275+ but it really comes down to if the skill exp TNL and skill exp to next skill level and worked out well enough to have equilibrium at a higher skill level. Or will it still start to drop off more and more as I close in on 275. Now I've just popped in some medicine points and started to grind it up and it really illustrates to problem with the -skill speed/level system. Even though I have plenty of FP (and even 2 spare attributes) that growth rate is very low compared to what it would have been if I did medicine at a low level, which would have been almost twice as fast.



Now for comparison here's my 1.4.2 char at a whopping 1260+ days in campaign, also at level 23. I've maxed out riding and bow and have gotten very high in several other good skills.


I don't know but I think the new leveling feels better and I think if I would have not done a little smithing I might have had an easier time maxing more skills.
Ultimately I would rather drop the learning speed reduction/level thing and (if we must) just have a level cap.
I would rather just be capped at 24 and know I could make full use out of all the FP and attributes I get in whatever skills I choose.

Not sure if this has been discussed but I do not think I got my level recalculated when coming off an old save. That's bogus. I should have massively leveled but I got nothing. So I had gone too far and it's hard to get anything out of the new system since I got no retroactive leveling for me or my companions. Really sucks.

Also the perks are still completely absolutely 100% broken

 

[Apocal]

Attributes barely increases the learning rate though , so it's better to wait until you actually approach the orange cap to see how you should spend them best to increase maximum learning of a skill. If I spend it on INT now and in 1000 days my medicine still doesn't exceed the green zone I have without it, then I wasted attributes that could have help something else! And I can't put more FP in the thing I want!

Medicine is a snowballing skill though; you get XP for healing wounded members of your party. The faster you heal them, the faster your XP gains, making it a little bit faster to level. At any rate, complaining about leveling speed when you have ways of speeding it up sitting right there is foolish.

One problem with Bannerlord is that the perks that come with skill levels have some must have picks. For example, you'd be crazy to not level up trading to "everything has a price." or smithing to "Controlled/Vigourous smith" and the other perks that give extra stat points. Or leadership to the point where you can assign troop formations at the start of a battle.

That leadership perk doesn't work.

 

[black_bulldog]

My companion engineer when from 80 to 81 and a half from an entire siege of building camp, 4 trebs, destroying 4+ catapult and the walls.
There aren't enough fiefs in the game to build that skill up. I think something wrong though because I kinda remember trying it in earlier versions and it seemed a little faster, but still sucky.
Stewart is good, I like it on MC usually but Nasun has a good amount so using him give a nice party boost. He's stats are messed up though so it's maybe not likely to get him the fp to level it up more.
Medicine is so slow, but all I got in my game is a 62 skill willow bark wanderer with wonky stats, so **** I guess I'm doing it.
I wish they would improve engineering and medicine speeds and give more way to raise them. I feel like INT would be the best skill group if we could actually get these high on the MC, sense only you MC has the ability to be all 3 rolls and choose to have high int.

I actually went into fights looking to get troops killed, mostly looters and new recruits and it helps but it's a stupid way of leveling up the skill and even then it's damn slow. It really needs to be adjusted.
I played the game at least through a couple of years on several characters and only once did I try engineering and after that time I felt like I wasted my time so I decided never again.

probably worth just getting a companion to do those for you. thats what I usually do.

100% agree It's not worth the time and effort.

 

[NikitaOnline17]

If this is a bug, which it probably is, then until the level up trigger is fixed, the system is functionally the same as the previous one. If your character level ups by gaining XP, but requires a skill point to be raised to actually level up once you've reached the XP threshold, then we're still stuck in the context of skill points.

Not really. The needing to level a skill at the end may be a bug but you can fill your entire bar worth of xp using only a skill that's at 0.00 learning rate, and then learn exactly 1 skill for the entire player level. It completely ignores learning rate modifiers and whether you're actually leveling up any skills except when the bar is full.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Medicine is a snowballing skill though; you get XP for healing wounded members of your party. The faster you heal them, the faster your XP gains, making it a little bit faster to level. At any rate, complaining about leveling speed when you have ways of speeding it up sitting right there is foolish.

It doesn't increase the learning speed enough to be worth using the points. I knocked out 40 guys every fight and healed them every battle to get it to 102. The time gained with +healing rate is unfathomably weaker then the time increased by needing more and more skill exp and the learning rate dropping per level up. It doesn't get faster, it gets slower and slower and slower. Much better to use them on a skill that will increase reasonably at reach it's full potential. And then a guy like this shows up and mogs you anyways.

 

[stevehoos]

Why didn't TW just stick to the Warband system, this thing is all over the place?

 

[Meaning481]

Why didn't TW just stick to the Warband system, this thing is all over the place?

Let's unpack that actually. The Warband system wasn't perfect, and it's actually more similar to bannerlord than you might think. Let's lay out the two systems, talk about their problems, compare, and see what tweaks we can make. Let's set aside how hard it would be to change the code for another discussion. I suspect that it would be trivial for what I propose at the end.

Systems Compared

In M&B, Warband, WF&S, and Viking Conquest, weapon proficiency skills increased with using the weapon and dealing damage. Everything else was increased by levelling up through experience gained per quest or defeated enemy. In every title but Viking, characters got one skill and one attribute point per level, and bonus weapons proficiency points. Viking Conquest was almost the same except characters gained two skill points per level and one attribute per five levels.

In Bannerlord, every skill has skill focus, and skill proficiency points. Proficiency points and XP are tied together. You gain one attribute every three levels, and one skill focus point per level. You level through gaining experience every time you increase a skill proficiency through using that skill. Every 10 points of proficiency, you gain a perk which is a bonus feature for your character, letting you do a new thing, or increasing your statistics in specific gameplay areas. Attributes no longer cap skill points. Instead both are tied to learning skill proficiencies.

In both systems, levels require increasing amounts of XP. There is no cap, but a character will eventually plateau. Skill proficiencies have a learning limit in both systems where progression slows to a crawl if you don't increase your attributes in the skill.

Warband's Problems
The flaw with warband was not in the progression loop, but that certain skills were incentivized over others to optimize a character. For example, leadership in Warband was not something companions could use to contribute to your party, so it was always optimal to level leadership, and let your companions specialize in the other skills. There were fixed companions with fixed specialties to make this a feature. However at high levels you could sometimes put skill points in to other categories if you maxed out what you wanted, and books could be purchased to level skills further if your intelligence was high enough.

Bottlenecks in progression were that some equipment needed a high skill, attribute. Armor needed strength, books needed intelligence, and ranged weapons needed their respective power skill. However, if you were bad in one category, you were probably good in another. Skills were capped to 1/3 of their attribute, so attribute allocation was the most important.

Warband's Problems
In Bannerlord a bottleneck in one category now can bottleneck your whole progression. If you reach high levels, you have to gain so many skill points to get a new level, you'll never be able to get the focus points to break past your learning limit. This means if you power level through focusing on one skill, you may not be able to optimize your character. There is no book system, and no bonus skill points per level.

In terms of previous titles is most comparable to M&B Viking conquest, but Viking conquest characters started with higher stats than warband characters. They also got two skill points AND bonus weapon proficiency points, so even in the slowest original game title, every level could be a power spike. This is not the case in Bannerlord. In Bannerlord, you are capped to five focus points per skill.

Comparison and Conclusion
Attribute points and increasing experience requirements slow progression in both systems. Bannerlord's current system doesn't give players enough of a power increase per level. Ways to fix this without switching to the old system would be to give attributes more often, start players with more attributes, or both.

We also haven't seen all the perk trees be reworked and implemented yet, and that could drastically impact how progression feels. If every tree has good low level perks, people might not feel the need to reach higher levels in as many skills.

Comments? Thoughts? Rebuttals?

 

[Magello]

Let's unpack that actually. The Warband system wasn't perfect, and it's actually more similar to bannerlord than you might think. Let's lay out the two systems, talk about their problems, compare, and see what tweaks we can make. Let's set aside how hard it would be to change the code for another discussion. I suspect that it would be trivial for what I propose at the end.

Systems Compared

In M&B, Warband, WF&S, and Viking Conquest, weapon proficiency skills increased with using the weapon and dealing damage. Everything else was increased by levelling up through experience gained per quest or defeated enemy. In every title but Viking, characters got one skill and one attribute point per level, and bonus weapons proficiency points. Viking Conquest was almost the same except characters gained two skill points per level and one attribute per five levels.

In Bannerlord, every skill has skill focus, and skill proficiency points. Proficiency points and XP are tied together. You gain one attribute every three levels, and one skill focus point per level. You level through gaining experience every time you increase a skill proficiency through using that skill. Every 10 points of proficiency, you gain a perk which is a bonus feature for your character, letting you do a new thing, or increasing your statistics in specific gameplay areas. Attributes no longer cap skill points. Instead both are tied to learning skill proficiencies.

In both systems, levels require increasing amounts of XP. There is no cap, but a character will eventually plateau. Skill proficiencies have a learning limit in both systems where progression slows to a crawl if you don't increase your attributes in the skill.

Warband's Problems
The flaw with warband was not in the progression loop, but that certain skills were incentivized over others to optimize a character. For example, leadership in Warband was not something companions could use to contribute to your party, so it was always optimal to level leadership, and let your companions specialize in the other skills. There were fixed companions with fixed specialties to make this a feature. However at high levels you could sometimes put skill points in to other categories if you maxed out what you wanted, and books could be purchased to level skills further if your intelligence was high enough.

Bottlenecks in progression were that some equipment needed a high skill, attribute. Armor needed strength, books needed intelligence, and ranged weapons needed their respective power skill. However, if you were bad in one category, you were probably good in another. Skills were capped to 1/3 of their attribute, so attribute allocation was the most important.

Warband's Problems
In Bannerlord a bottleneck in one category now can bottleneck your whole progression. If you reach high levels, you have to gain so many skill points to get a new level, you'll never be able to get the focus points to break past your learning limit. This means if you power level through focusing on one skill, you may not be able to optimize your character. There is no book system, and no bonus skill points per level.

In terms of previous titles is most comparable to M&B Viking conquest, but Viking conquest characters started with higher stats than warband characters. They also got two skill points AND bonus weapon proficiency points, so even in the slowest original game title, every level could be a power spike. This is not the case in Bannerlord. In Bannerlord, you are capped to five focus points per skill.

Comparison and Conclusion
Attribute points and increasing experience requirements slow progression in both systems. Bannerlord's current system doesn't give players enough of a power increase per level. Ways to fix this without switching to the old system would be to give attributes more often, start players with more attributes, or both.

We also haven't seen all the perk trees be reworked and implemented yet, and that could drastically impact how progression feels. If every tree has good low level perks, people might not feel the need to reach higher levels in as many skills.

Comments? Thoughts? Rebuttals?

This is a good breakdown, I really like Warband's system for it being simple and complex for how to plan your character and companions to really develop your character. If you had your party really working together it really felt like a well built machine. I really don't get that feeling with Bannerlord. I do like the leveling system in Bannerlord but I really feel a lot of people would be happier or not if they just had points for each system to fill to the next level and no overall learning rate.

So when you level one handed up to say level 125 then it take a lot more to get to 150 then it did to go from 100 to 125 and you can add focus points to boost your ability to get xp. But don't ever have any skills modifier go below x1.

This really wouldn't change what they have much.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

The Warband system wasn't perfect

But I can do this.

I can't do that in bannerlord. I want to do that. I want the power. That thing gets +14 int skills at level 13, then we start maxing powerdraw.

so it was always optimal to level leadership

No, leadership is a noob trap, having more troops is a cruch for not knowing how to work them well, useless compared to the power of extra +4 Int skills.

I think the main difference to me is the way passive skills are learned. In warband I spend a point (and 3 attributes)to raise a passive skill, the end I have it. In Bannerlord I spend a point to be able to skill up a passive skill, which is a problem for 2 reasons
1: The passive skills (medicine, engineering)are needed most early and are not readily able to be skilled up early. Engineering requires a siege, in fact an absurd amount of them for a little progress. Medicine requires downed units to be raised, something you want to avoid. The hole point of these skill is to have an advantage in war, but you can't raise them on you main character with out already doing lots and lots of war.

2: The difference in speed between raising some passive skills versus combat skills. medicine and engineering are so absurdly slow that they suffer immensely from learning speed reduction from leveling, coming from raising other skills.

In my experience Bannerlord gives you the choice between being a combat character or being a piece of ****.

 

[Apocal]

No, leadership is a noob trap, having more troops is a cruch for not knowing how to work them well, useless compared to the power of extra +4 Int skills.

In WB, I booshed Leadership for the party wage reduction bonus.

In my experience Bannerlord gives you the choice between being a combat character or being a piece of ****.

You're not really forced to invest much into combat skills to have an effective combat character though. There's no Weapon Master, Power Strike, Power Draw or Ironflesh skills and the requirements to use weapons are set fairly low. I think the best bows in the game require a 60 in Bow, the best horses require a 90 in Riding and none of the melee weapons have strength attribute requirements. A long glaive or executioner's axe OSKs (almost) every troop in the game on a good hit, even if you have a 10 in Polearm or Two-handed skill.

Everything past the point of "I kill everything in the game" is superfluous because you can't make them double dead.

Meanwhile, I do a single quest for the village headman and unlock every single recruitment slot then swap Companies of Trouble between the two lords who offered that quest on 170 Charm.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Meanwhile, I do a single quest for the village headman and unlock every single recruitment slot then swap Companies of Trouble between the two lords who offered that quest on 170 Charm.

You're starting to sell me on the charm skill..... I don't mind having to catch a release lord few more times for relation but getting notables up fast could be interesting....... as usual I have a surplus of unspent points.

 

[AJAJP_Juan]

You're starting to sell me on the charm skill..... I don't mind having to catch a release lord few more times for relation but getting notables up fast could be interesting....... as usual I have a surplus of unspent points.

I know you dont like this, but if you want to increase your charm FAST, try to spend the high influence options in fiefs voting on other lords.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I know you dont like this, but if you want to increase your charm FAST, try to spend the high influence options in fiefs voting on other lords.

There is no other lords. Just my Clan chillen in Chaikand, this time we took Ampreal too. It was suppossed to bee a smash and grab for diversion, but stupid mochung was so slow that he couldn't take it back before Chakaid sallied out to their doom. Now 25 looters live their and I get taxes. I might pick a fight with the northern empire so they can take it back though.

 

[MostBlunted]

That´s a nice discussion but you forget one thing, Warband is just the better game when it comes down to gameplay. Bannerlord is for CoD players as Callum said, they want it more action paced.

TW just wants to sell it, Graphics and simple Gameplay already sold it.

If you want depth, wait for the mods.