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Outlawed
Sergeant Knight
This is some awesome progress.
Sorry I haven't been replying, its mainly because I was traveling and due to my Laptop dying on me.
@ Sahran, that is some gorgeous stuff right there. I will get to adding a post for the Fatimids right away. We will finish their other information as well and have them and the SSR done so we can move on to next factions.
Also, Ghulaman Al-Khass are a very important rank that I seemed to have forgotten/ignored. Thanks for them! I will replace the Senior Ghulam with that.
@Al-Mansur:
Check your inbox please
@Kuauik:
Be sure to PM me when you reach the beta so I can start giving you jobz =)
Sorry I haven't been replying, its mainly because I was traveling and due to my Laptop dying on me.
@ Sahran, that is some gorgeous stuff right there. I will get to adding a post for the Fatimids right away. We will finish their other information as well and have them and the SSR done so we can move on to next factions.
Also, Ghulaman Al-Khass are a very important rank that I seemed to have forgotten/ignored. Thanks for them! I will replace the Senior Ghulam with that.
@Al-Mansur:
Check your inbox please
@Kuauik:
Be sure to PM me when you reach the beta so I can start giving you jobz =)
NordArcher
Sergeant at Arms
I just wanted to say something about armor, it's that mail costed more than any soldier could afford, it was only worn by knights at that time (or so said someone who seemed to know what he was talking about). A trained soldier would use "Things like studded leather, or Asiatic silk robes, or rusty mail", as he says. I don't know if what he says is true, but it seems plausible, as mail required a lot of work to do. Rusty mail would be discarded by knights probably and therefore more accessible for a trained soldier.
All this to say, that if you put heavy armor on a troop, make sure it's a knight (or equivalent status). Could you also make the weapon list for Seljuks?
All this to say, that if you put heavy armor on a troop, make sure it's a knight (or equivalent status). Could you also make the weapon list for Seljuks?
Outlawed
Sergeant Knight
I'll start work on that soon.
Also Sahran, it would be good if we finished Muslim factions first because they make a good chunk of the work and are probably the most demanding in terms of research and what not. I'm guessing Crusader States would be easier to research. Since we have someone working on Almohads, or at least they had a mod regarding the Iberian Peninsula so might have some information about them, I think the Abassids/Danismends/Zengids/Burids might be good next.
Also Sahran, it would be good if we finished Muslim factions first because they make a good chunk of the work and are probably the most demanding in terms of research and what not. I'm guessing Crusader States would be easier to research. Since we have someone working on Almohads, or at least they had a mod regarding the Iberian Peninsula so might have some information about them, I think the Abassids/Danismends/Zengids/Burids might be good next.
@Kamikazuh
Here's a nice concept screenshot. The equipment is a tad late for the mod, but it can serve as a basis for a composition. Maybe it'll make a nice background for a signature.....
Just for something to try. I am in no way mandating you to do it. And Outlawed may come up with something better anyway.....
Here's a nice concept screenshot. The equipment is a tad late for the mod, but it can serve as a basis for a composition. Maybe it'll make a nice background for a signature.....
Just for something to try. I am in no way mandating you to do it. And Outlawed may come up with something better anyway.....
Sahran
Grandmaster Knight
NordArcher said:
I think that's a tricky question because it's clear that almost every faction had access to mail and did use it, and use it beyond the knightly sort of class. Part of the reason for the myth of the unarmored saracen is because it was popular if not outright necessary for them to wear their armor beneath their cloth (and also for fashionable reasons), hence they could appear unarmored when in fact they weren't. And some stuff like the "kazanghand" was actually a cloth kaftan with 2 layers of mail.
But there seems to be something to the idea that Frankish mail, or at least the mail worn by a knight was thicker or more layered than the mail Saracen's wore, and also a belated and unscientific realization of mine that you can often see concept art or a visual art of a mail coat with only one, almost see through layer of mail on a poorer, low quality soldier and then the mail of a knight and their similars which would seem thicker.
So mail shouldn't be limited to just knights, nor would just knights be the heaviest soldiers around (See the Frankish accounts of the Gesta Francorum and they comment that at the siege of Antioch the Muslims had 3,000 men called "Agulani" (Though they may have been Mamluks/ghulams) whom the author says they and their horses were fully encased in armor and feared no weaponry), but knights would be amongst the heaviest soldiers around.
Outlawed: Gotcha, I'll see what I can do.
Yep, basically in that period, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Persian influenced Muslim states in the East had the heaviest cavalry. Basically encased horses(and soldiers).Sahran said:
Sahran
Grandmaster Knight
For the Template, just so we're clear I'm not really one for doing the non military research. I can figure out maybe a few things, like the leader/banners, but I was hoping someone else could handle the "Administrative" part of the Fatimids. My forte is more with regards to military organization, nomenclature, appearances, that sort of stuff.
I can streamline that part of it (the military, the units) into the template although it basically is done since I split up the different troop trees under local, merc, and special. I just need to update them with the additional research I did.
Also when you mentioned in the past the remaining 4 East Islamic factions, I think it's fair to say that the Danismends would largely be a duplicate of the Seljuks of Rum and the Burids a duplicate of the Zengids up to a certain point. With the Danismends I really can't see how their roster would be any different, since when in the past I did research on various Seljuk States it pointed to a fairly regular appearance whether they were in Anatolia, Syria, or even Iran. And I don't see any possible research showing up for the Danismends that wasn't for the Seljuks of Rum.
For the Burids, it'd pretty much be the Zengids again with a few changes. I know the Zengid's big three ethnic groups of their soldiers were Turks (Primary), Arabs and Kurds and also Armenian mercenaries, so the Burids would pretty much just be Turkic and Arab troops with the usual Ahdath and so on.
I can figure out maybe a few things, like the leader/banners, but I was hoping someone else could handle the "Administrative" part of the Fatimids. My forte is more with regards to military organization, nomenclature, appearances, that sort of stuff.I can streamline that part of it (the military, the units) into the template although it basically is done since I split up the different troop trees under local, merc, and special. I just need to update them with the additional research I did.
Also when you mentioned in the past the remaining 4 East Islamic factions, I think it's fair to say that the Danismends would largely be a duplicate of the Seljuks of Rum and the Burids a duplicate of the Zengids up to a certain point. With the Danismends I really can't see how their roster would be any different, since when in the past I did research on various Seljuk States it pointed to a fairly regular appearance whether they were in Anatolia, Syria, or even Iran. And I don't see any possible research showing up for the Danismends that wasn't for the Seljuks of Rum.
For the Burids, it'd pretty much be the Zengids again with a few changes. I know the Zengid's big three ethnic groups of their soldiers were Turks (Primary), Arabs and Kurds and also Armenian mercenaries, so the Burids would pretty much just be Turkic and Arab troops with the usual Ahdath and so on.
Outlawed
Sergeant Knight
Hmm. Maybe it would be a good idea to have the Burids under the Zengids and the Danismends under the Rums then.
I think that would make work easier and would help us with the duplicate problem. Also, I'm still getting to learn how to make maps with the Map Editor, so it might take a while before I actually get the map done =p
I'll get on the administrative of the Fatimids then.
So, that means we have Fatimids and Seljuks out of the way, military wise. Ofcourse some name changes are needed for my troop tree, I'll go ahead and add yours the way it is right now and if you want to update it, just let me know.
I think that would make work easier and would help us with the duplicate problem. Also, I'm still getting to learn how to make maps with the Map Editor, so it might take a while before I actually get the map done =p
I'll get on the administrative of the Fatimids then.
So, that means we have Fatimids and Seljuks out of the way, military wise. Ofcourse some name changes are needed for my troop tree, I'll go ahead and add yours the way it is right now and if you want to update it, just let me know.
So I made some researchs for some Fatimid units with the books I have. Of course, Sahran would be far more useful than me with that as he knows a lot about Fatimids, but I think what I've done is a good start.
Concerning Ajnad, al-Muqta'un, al-Hujariyya Faris, here interesting drawings of 12th century Fatimid/Arab horsemen:
From left to right: mid 12th century Fatimid horseman (source: Armies and ennemis of the Crusades 1096-1291), 12th century Fatimid horseman (source: Saladin and the Saracens, Osprey), early 12th century Arab Faris (source: Saracen Faris, Osprey).
So I think that besides a turban, a spear and a sword the Ajnad Faris can wear a simple tunic or leather light armor and have a small turs (round shield).
Concerning Al-Muqta'un, they should wear a short hauberk, and have small kite shield or turs. A turban on the head is sufficient.
Finally, al-Hujariyya should be protected by a long hauberk, sometimes covered by a tunic, as it was often the case in all Islamic world. Both kite shields and turs (of all sizes) are good for them. They should wear mail coifs with turbans or mail coifs with helmets and turbans.
Otherwise, a Sibyan al-Khass (from Saladin and the Saracens):
He is heavily armored. Under his tunic he wears a full hauberk.
Concerning mid 12th century Syrian horsemen, they are nice drawings in Armies and ennemis of the crusades:
They fit with the description made by Sahran in his troop trees.
I continue tomorrow, I'm too tired now to write clear things, especially about items..
Concerning Ajnad, al-Muqta'un, al-Hujariyya Faris, here interesting drawings of 12th century Fatimid/Arab horsemen:
So I think that besides a turban, a spear and a sword the Ajnad Faris can wear a simple tunic or leather light armor and have a small turs (round shield).
Concerning Al-Muqta'un, they should wear a short hauberk, and have small kite shield or turs. A turban on the head is sufficient.
Finally, al-Hujariyya should be protected by a long hauberk, sometimes covered by a tunic, as it was often the case in all Islamic world. Both kite shields and turs (of all sizes) are good for them. They should wear mail coifs with turbans or mail coifs with helmets and turbans.
Otherwise, a Sibyan al-Khass (from Saladin and the Saracens):
Concerning mid 12th century Syrian horsemen, they are nice drawings in Armies and ennemis of the crusades:
I continue tomorrow, I'm too tired now to write clear things, especially about items..
Sahran
Grandmaster Knight
Great work on the flags, Outlawed.
Al-Mansur, you did a good job and I can't imagine I have more visual resources than you.
I pretty much agree with your work on the Fatimids, although Armies of the Crusades 1096-1291 does seem to stress the relative rarity of the kite shield though it was in use. The only big thing I'd change is with regards to the leather light armor. I am sure they and other Muslims did use leather armor but generally it does seem more likely that quilted/padded cotton would be used instead of leather - which I don't think is very comfortable for the wearer in the heat of the Mid-East and which I know would crack, warp and break more easily (one of the reasons the Wehrmacht switched from leather to canvas webbing for their equipment in North Africa in WW2).
From the Hamblin's Thesis I was given by someone on a Wargaming Forum, written for the University of Michigan by this author: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Hamblin
Cavalrymen's equipment
Infantry Equipment
Armor
Weaponry
Al-Mansur, you did a good job and I can't imagine I have more visual resources than you.
I pretty much agree with your work on the Fatimids, although Armies of the Crusades 1096-1291 does seem to stress the relative rarity of the kite shield though it was in use. The only big thing I'd change is with regards to the leather light armor. I am sure they and other Muslims did use leather armor but generally it does seem more likely that quilted/padded cotton would be used instead of leather - which I don't think is very comfortable for the wearer in the heat of the Mid-East and which I know would crack, warp and break more easily (one of the reasons the Wehrmacht switched from leather to canvas webbing for their equipment in North Africa in WW2).
From the Hamblin's Thesis I was given by someone on a Wargaming Forum, written for the University of Michigan by this author: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Hamblin
Cavalrymen's equipment
Infantry Equipment
Armor
Weaponry
