kuauik said:when the 1257 mod reach its beta,then i am free to make some textures for you,in case you like my textures of course
NordArcher said:I just wanted to say something about armor, it's that mail costed more than any soldier could afford, it was only worn by knights at that time (or so said someone who seemed to know what he was talking about). A trained soldier would use "Things like studded leather, or Asiatic silk robes, or rusty mail", as he says. I don't know if what he says is true, but it seems plausible, as mail required a lot of work to do. Rusty mail would be discarded by knights probably and therefore more accessible for a trained soldier.
All this to say, that if you put heavy armor on a troop, make sure it's a knight (or equivalent status). Could you also make the weapon list for Seljuks?
Yep, basically in that period, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Persian influenced Muslim states in the East had the heaviest cavalry. Basically encased horses(and soldiers).Sahran said:NordArcher said:I just wanted to say something about armor, it's that mail costed more than any soldier could afford, it was only worn by knights at that time (or so said someone who seemed to know what he was talking about). A trained soldier would use "Things like studded leather, or Asiatic silk robes, or rusty mail", as he says. I don't know if what he says is true, but it seems plausible, as mail required a lot of work to do. Rusty mail would be discarded by knights probably and therefore more accessible for a trained soldier.
All this to say, that if you put heavy armor on a troop, make sure it's a knight (or equivalent status). Could you also make the weapon list for Seljuks?
I think that's a tricky question because it's clear that almost every faction had access to mail and did use it, and use it beyond the knightly sort of class. Part of the reason for the myth of the unarmored saracen is because it was popular if not outright necessary for them to wear their armor beneath their cloth (and also for fashionable reasons), hence they could appear unarmored when in fact they weren't. And some stuff like the "kazanghand" was actually a cloth kaftan with 2 layers of mail.
But there seems to be something to the idea that Frankish mail, or at least the mail worn by a knight was thicker or more layered than the mail Saracen's wore, and also a belated and unscientific realization of mine that you can often see concept art or a visual art of a mail coat with only one, almost see through layer of mail on a poorer, low quality soldier and then the mail of a knight and their similars which would seem thicker.
So mail shouldn't be limited to just knights, nor would just knights be the heaviest soldiers around (See the Frankish accounts of the Gesta Francorum and they comment that at the siege of Antioch the Muslims had 3,000 men called "Agulani" (Though they may have been Mamluks/ghulams) whom the author says they and their horses were fully encased in armor and feared no weaponry), but knights would be amongst the heaviest soldiers around.
Outlawed: Gotcha, I'll see what I can do.
Al_Mansur said:Counterpoint, that's an awesome screenshot but the late equipments are too much obvious, especially great helms. We will see them immediately.
There were not substantial differences between the military tech of the Fatimids and the Crusaders, and if anything the Fatimid technology may have been superior.
However, the relative proportions of heavily as opposed to lightly armed men in the two armies could have a significant impact on the results of campaigns. In attempting to explain the reasons for the Fatimid defeat at the hands of the Crusaders some modern historians have made the assumption that the Fatimid troopers were in general more lightly armed than the Crusaders.
Precise data on the types and quality of arms and armor for the Fatimids is not readily available...(ect.), nonetheless, a careful exmanination of the available evidence even if it will not as yet produce a complete picture of the fatimid armament, will at least allow us to dismiss the theory that the Fatimids were poorly and lightly equipped.
(Paraphrased) "While the Berbers that helped the Fatimids conquer Egypt may have been for the most part lightly armed, a signifigant portion of the Fatimid Cavalry adopted heavier armor in the later periods."
1000 AD - Fatimid cavalry regiment described as 400 mamluks wearing kazaghand armor and helmets, swords and war maces, and taifif (barding) for their horses.
1060 AD - Nasir-i Khusrav describes "10,000 cavalry with expensive equipment. Each horse is covered with armor. (Almost certainly exaggerated)
1144 AD - Usama notes that in a battle the Fatimid army had 'donned armor for combat'.
1163 AD - 6000 Fatimid cavalry are described as heaving costly armor and excellent weapons.
Some fatimid armor is described as being double strength, consisting of a kazaghand covered by mail. While this might suggest some Fatimid cavalry were heavier than the Frankish counterparts, it's not to say all were as heavily armored as those described above. Many or most of the irregular troops with their lack of regular pay and equipment distrubutions from the state would be more lightly armored, or even unarmored.
1136 AD - When "Bahram" fled to Upper Egypt he was accompanied by about 2000 Faris rumat = mounted archers.
Albert of Aix confirms the use of bows by mounted Fatimid troops in the garrison of Ascalon, sending forth men well skilled in the use of lance and bow.
Dr. Hamblin suggests (as I've read elsewhere) of the Armenian cavalry being the most accomplished at horse archery, and that it was mentioned by a "Maqrizi" that in the days of Al-Zahir the Hujariya were trained in horse archery.
Lutut/Lutat - a war mace of an elongated head and iron shaft two cubits long (3 feet), square in form. Was used by cavalry and Sudanese infantry (the Azoparts).
Reinforces the predominance of the javelin amongst the sudanese (along with them using shields), and that the Daraqa would have a metal or silver boss.
Archers/Crossbowmen are important but few in numbers. 8000 infantry were present in a military review of unknown date, only 1000 of which are armed with bow or crossbow. Another review of 5000 brings up only 500 crossbowmen.
Reinforces the Armenians being excellent bowmen, an anecdote of Bahram saying a thousand armenian bowmen could help him conquer the world to the gates of Constantinople. When Al-afdal ruled (until 1121), Armenians probably had a monopoly on Archery.
Survey of Artistic gorelik has recognized the armor of the Fatimid period included:
Mail (dir' or zardiya), lamellar jawshan, a type similar to scale with a rounded scale edge upwards beyond the mail and finally the scale (quilted or lined) qazakand. Like the contemporary short syrian mail coat the long mail coat had full length sleeves and often served as an undershirt. Lamellar armor, being knee length, probably had a hemmed slit in the front. Armor similar to scale was waist long and poncho-chaped.
"kazaghand armour reinforced by mail covered in finely wrought silk brocade, and jawshan armor reinforced ( Madfuna - literally 'buried') by chain mail and gold."
"Kazaghand/Khazaghand/qazakand) and jawshan were types of lamellar, scale, or splint armor which included a large number of different specific styles" - Not necessarily true, as I believe a Kazaghand was typically a mail coat within a quilted/cloth tunic. However the nomenclature is tricky and it may be that the Jawshan is the armor with 'buried' mail
Horse barding is "Taifif" (I think)
Daraqa is the small round shield with no wood - just leather and possibly metal rim/boss
Turs is a large round shield, possibly and probably convex, with a wood and leather design and the optional metal rim/bosses/studs.
Some metal shields were used, as were poorer quality ones of reed or whatever.
Usual faire of weaponry: Swords, lances, ect.
Comments that in the most important arsenal helmets and most of the many types of mail suits and swords were decorated with silver
Arab style swords
Qaljuriya swords - long, slightly curved Persian saber, the qalachur
Lances
Painted and gold washed Qartariya (a very long cavalry lance)
Bows - for shooting by hand according to the respective skill of the archer. Khatut bow was appropriate for skilled archers.
Crossbows - Qisi al-rijl
Stirrup Crossbow - qisl al-rikab (May not be a stirrup to load the crossbow, but rather a horseman's crossbow since rikab is usually for mounted)