B Medieval [WB] Warband: Total Realism, 1148 A.D. - (MAPPER needed)

[Al_Mansur]

Thanks Outlawed.
Yes you are right Sahran concerning leather armor. I forgot that gambesons were far more prevalent than leather armors in medieval Arab world  .  Are you sure that turs were more common than kite shields ? In my books Fatimids have kite shield rather than turs.

Hamblin's thesis is awesome, those descriptions are quite useful.

Otherwise, mid 12th century Black Fatimids from Armies and ennemis of the crusades:

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We can see the lutat mace.

And Fatimid infantry:

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From left to right: two mid 12th century infantrymen from Armies and ennemis of the crusades and a 12th century light infantryman from Saladin and the Saracens.

Those pictures will help a lot for the numerous infantry units.

Now I will take screenshots of Native's items which can be used by Fatimids with modifications or no. It will enable us to allocate them between the different units and to make a list of what need to be modelled.

 

[Outlawed]

I tell you what, I really like this idea where me and Sahran provide unit/troop trees, and you use your resources/knowledge to show us pictorial representations of our research. Since everything is historically accurate so to speak, we should be able to find each other's works through each other's research. Keep them pics coming =p

Also, announcement:
We will be using the awesome,Papa's Combat Animations Mod for our project. Have a read and check out his previews, it is some really good stuff.

One comment, since I know Arabic, I will change the orders of the names that Sahran has for example:
Al-Muqat-un Fawaris would be, Fursan Al-Muqat'at.

Following is a list:
(All names given in singular, since most descriptions you find in history are in plural. Since we are calling one unit at a time, say 'Swadian Knight' as opposed to 'Swadian KnightS' we would be better off sticking with singular.)

However, since this will be troublesome for some people, as they will not know the words meanings, I will release a PDF unit guide and an English name version of the mod when it actually is released.

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Jund (pl. Ajnad) Faris/Fawaris - Jund'ey(single form of Jund), Faris, both words point to the same thing in Arabic, saying Jund Faris as a name is sort of redundant so I'll go Jund'ey Al-Faras, which means: "Solider of the horse".

Al-Muqta'un Faris/Fawaris - Faris could be translated as horseman. Fawaris is a plural of the first plural. In Arabic, one word doesn't have only 1 plural, but many. The first plural is general the simplest one. Plural for Faris is Fursan. So I'll go with, Faris Al-Muqata'a, which means "Horseman of the Iqta'a or Muqata'a"

Al-Hujariyya Faris/Fawaris, this just needs re-arrangement, Faris Al-Hujariyya.

Mamluk Al-Amir (pl. Mamalik al-Umara): "Mamluke(s) of the Amir(s)" This is fine

Mamluk Al-Khawass Al-Khalifa: This one is tricky. Mainly because Al-Khawass and Mamluk are both action as the "Mubta'da", in Arabic, this word is the Noun that usually starts a sentence. Having two words that point to it doesn't work in Arabic Grammar. So we could stay with Khawass Al-Khalifa, or Mamluk Al-Khalifa.

Sibyan al-Khass Faris/Fawaris: in single form this would be, Sab'ey Al-Khawass. The reason I removed Al-Khass is that it is a single word. In Arabic two words that describe each other cannot be the same 'form' aka, if one is plural the other must be singular. Sab'ey is the single form of Sibyan, Al-Khawass is the plural form of Al-Khass, which means 'special' or 'premium'.

Ajnad al-Misr ("Army of Egypt") or Al-Misr Militia (The Egyptian Militia), this would be Ajnad Misr, without the Al, but since we need a single form, it would be Jend'ey Masr'ey. Which means "Egpytian Soldier"

Arabiyyun Muqatila: "Arabian Fighting men/Fighters" , this would be Muqatl Arab'ey, or Arabian Warrior/Fighter.

Armenian 'Qaws' - Qaws, Qaws in Arabic means bow. Commanders would shout, 'Qaws!' or 'Rumah't!' for the bowmen to stand ready for orders. The 'user' word for the noun Qaws would be Qayas, however, I think the best way to put this would be, Rami Arman'ey. Which means, Armenian Bowman.

Juyushiyya Archers - Rami Al-Juyushiyya.

Juyushiyya Ghulams/Faris/Askars - Ghulam Al-Juyushiyya.

Ahdath are obvious yes, but are you sure you want the spearman to upgrade into an archer unit? That would leave only the Arabic Fighers as the only infantry for that whole faction.

 

[Al_Mansur]

There is no more picture concerning the Fatimids.

 

[Volkodav]

Heeey, Crusades mod, huh? nice, good luck with that one man, seems like Crusader mods are cursed here, seein' how like 3 or 4 pf the ,died out. But you guys are ,akimg hell of a progress. Will be looking this one closely. Good luck.

 

[Sahran]

There is no more picture concerning the Fatimids.

I've got some extra I can dig up, but generally I think it's okay if one uses additional resources which may be somewhat earlier, somewhat later, or somewhat of a different area for uniform/armor inspiration. After all, in the 11th and 12th century a French, German, English, North Italian and North Iberian warrior could all have somewhat similar fashions or armor styles, and likewise since the Fatimids were strongly influenced by previous Abbasid/Umayyad/Byzantine military strategies they could in turn have been influenced by said armor styles or clothing fashions. For their sudanese troops for instance we can look to other Maghrebi/Sudanese styles of the period and slightly earlier and for the Armenians we can look to earlier Armenian and Byzantine military styles.

It's my own personal opinion, but I've felt like before armor was getting increasingly more complex into the 13th-14th-15th centuries it was often just "Throw your armor coat and accessories onto a basically civilian outfit'. So for instance how an Arab would have dressed could be tweaked with the addition of a quilted dress, a mail coat, a lamellar jawshan, whatever.

 

[Al_Mansur]

Yes, and the picture I've posted can already be a source for most of the units. For example, the drawing of a simple spearman can also be a source for a simple archer in terms of clothing/armor.
Otherwise, taking North African styles of the period as source for the Sudaneses isn't accurate. In the 11th century, North African warriors were dressed in the Fatimid style as their territories were under Fatimid power for a long time. By the mid 12th century, North African must have had still more in common with Egyptian Fatimids than with Sudanese, and I don't think Murabitun ressembled to Sudaneses.

 

[Sahran]

I don't agree that it would be inaccurate. Sudan, meaning present day Sudan (Nubia) Ethiopia and modern Day Eritrea would be highly influenced from the Egyptians, and like you said "North African must have had still more in common with Egyptian Fatimids"....which then means if the Maghrebis were similar to the Fatimids, and the Sudanese troops "Fatimidized" (not the irregular zanjii mercenaries, or the fresh off the slave-block cannon fodder slaves) were similar to the Fatimids, then both share a common Fatimid influence and are not so different from one another.

Besides that, the Maghrebi influence on the Fatimids was especially waning by this point and all I mean is not to simply copy and paste a concept idea wholesale from the image of a Maghrebi soldier. But if there's a quilted dress or the appearance of a shield which could reasonably be attributed to a common North African rather than distinctly Berber look, we could use it for inspiration. For example, note the North African Cavalryman to the right: http://h.imagehost.org/0170/Andalusia_Taifa_Armies.jpg

We've seen that quilted dress used by the Fatimids and Sudanese. We know they had mail which was covered by cloth, and that the sources mention a variety of fashions for such armors, it's not a tremendous stretch to use that concept as an inspiration for a quilt-covered mail hauberk. Yeah, the guy is a Maghrebi cavalryman but a Norman wearing a mail coat with lamellar armor (from a mercenary stint for the Romans) wouldn't necessarily make his armor "Norman".

For example:



According to Osprey:

#1 was a member of an elite palace regiment, as evident from the embroidery on his cloak, his highly decorated shield and gilded infantry spear (It seems to be referencing the Abid in a parade procession with brightly painted/gilded shields and weaponry).

#2 has "Quilted armor, including padded trousers remained the standard form of protection in Sub-saharan Africa for a thousand years. Most iron items are likely to have been imported from Islamic Maghreb or Egypt. I've seen this exact quilted dress attributed to a Fatimid or at least 8th-12th century Egyptian infantryman as well as a berber of the 9th century and Ahdath of the 11th-12th century.

#3 - no pictoral evidence of sub-saharan africa wst of the nile in these centuries, his dress is based on detailed descriptions of Arab travellers and geographers and later costume and weaponry (his shield seems to be a depiction of the Maghrebi/Black African Lamt)

 

[Outlawed]

The Osprey books provide excellent inspiration for us in the later stages of the mod.
Its is just that, inspiration. Other than that, we can come up with stuff based on other evidence of the same time period and as you both said they would look fairly similar with some distinctive features here and there.

I've added the Fatimids on the second slot and will work on their town and fiefs with the Seljuks as well next.

 

[Al_Mansur]

Ok, but I thought you were also speaking about those zanji mercenaries and slaves.
Btw, this 11th century North African cavalryman has an awesome equipment, but I don't know if it ressembled to mid-12th century Maghrebi ones.

 

[Kamikazuh]

You've done a looot 


"Ze artist" has something to show you. I have been sick and everything so sorry for my absense.

This is heavily a WIP, the main guy's face sucks as does everything else still.. But it's something. The texts are just placeholders too.

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I started also this:

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...but ended up not liking it.

Not sure of what kind of art style you were thinking... If you don't like it, think that something should be changed/is wrong or it looks awful or aaaaanything, please say so.   I'm all open for suggestions.

 

[Al_Mansur]

Awesome !

 

[kuauik]

thats pretty neat

 

[Outlawed]

Lol Wow.
I will just crawl into my little useless turtle shell now and slit my wrists! lol
JK

The stuff is just what I had in mind actually. It gives the exact feel I wanted with the right focus/color balance.
I really like the 2nd one though, the first one is more loading screen material, its just powerful.

Keep us updated! Also, can you please make download links for the original pictures?

 

[Sophax]

You've done a looot 


"Ze artist" has something to show you. I have been sick and everything so sorry for my absense.

This is heavily a WIP, the main guy's face sucks as does everything else still.. But it's something. The texts are just placeholders too.

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I started also this:

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...but ended up not liking it.

Not sure of what kind of art style you were thinking... If you don't like it, think that something should be changed/is wrong or it looks awful or aaaaanything, please say so.   I'm all open for suggestions.

Wow that is simply amazing , incha'Allah you'll get a job with your drawing skills.

 

[Kamikazuh]

Thanks guys! Appreciated!

Outlawed, yeah I can. I'll have to refine it still. So I'll post it up later.  Not sure what I do with the second one though, not too happy with it.. Edit. But I'll see what I do I try to get second one working (for me) too.

Sophax, that's my goal

 

[CounterPoint391]

Holy ****. That is just damned friggin fantastically awesome. I'd go every time I loaded this mod for play......

Damn you, Outlawed , i might have to bribe your artist into doing stuff if I ever actually decide to make a mod.......

 

[Outlawed]

Holy ****. That is just damned friggin fantastically awesome. I'd go every time I loaded this mod for play......

Damn you, Outlawed , i might have to bribe your artist into doing stuff if I ever actually decide to make a mod.......

Lol, or you could join us and be part of this awesome team.

 

[Outlawed]

First post updated with Crusader State banners, I'm not too happy with them, but they look fine. I used one base structure for all, just changed colors around, nothing too drastic. Their coat of arms would look hideous on a banner so I though leave that for shields...
Anyway, your comments are appreciated!

You can also see them in this here spoiler:

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Kingdom of Jerusalem

Principality of Antioch

County of Tripoli

Principality of Armenian Cilicia

 

[kuauik]

First post updated with Crusader State banners, I'm not too happy with them, but they look fine. I used one base structure for all, just changed colors around, nothing too drastic. Their coat of arms would look hideous on a banner so I though leave that for shields...
Anyway, your comments are appreciated!

You can also see them in this here spoiler:

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Kingdom of Jerusalem

Principality of Antioch

County of Tripoli

Principality of Armenian Cilicia

[/spoiler

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these are Total war made up banners,i can make you the right ones if u want,there is little evidence on what Antioch,Edessa and Tripoli used,even Jerusalem itself,but i found one curious article about the possible heraldry of the Crusades states

 

[Outlawed]

Armenia and Jerusalem seem to be the closest ones to being real, but the rest, as I said are fictional at the best.
And, sure, if you can make some/share some stocks/give info that would be great!