Why is everyone dumb and superman in the native combat mode?

[talior3]

Horses aren't invincible. It's dumb that the enemy doesn't shoot the horses in their feet. Spearmen use spears, which is what a reasonable unit does against horsemen. Horses should naturally break the ever living duck out of anyone in it's way, broken bones spilled out brains. The horse will fall and get stabbed but it would take out people on its way.

Basically, I imagine real medieval combat as something that ends much faster when the people are truly at it. Because everything is much more fragile and easier to break in real life compared to the game's logic. Horses ramming people will kill them or leave them with every single bone broken, and the people would stab the horse with spears and the horse is expected to fall too. Basically everyone dies. Like a suicide mission for both sides.

Maybe my knowledge is poor really, but I have a feeling a that the Realistic Battle Mod represents real life combat logic much much better than the native's one.

 

[Philozoraptor]

We would actually really appreciate if the horse "hitbox" would stay real lets say 3 seconds after the horse dies so it could crash into infantry even if you kill it. That would make charge more realistic and interesting.

 

[black_bulldog]

I'm not an expert on medieval warfare but I have watched a fair few programs about it and read a few books. The whole idea of using a horse as a living battering ram sounds like a good idea until you realize how much training goes into making a horse, which is prey animal, obey commands when combat is raging all around them. Medieval knights formed a bond with horses which makes sense because of how much time they spent together.
While a horse certainly could be used to knock down an opponent they're still flesh and blood and eventually they're going to take an injury too. Would you want to risk the life of an animal you've spent 1000's of hours working with and training just to knock down a few soldiers in hopes you'll take them out more easily? Think about it another way, I own a 100lb American Bulldog I believe he would and could disarm a few guys who had knifes. If I were put in such a situation there's no way in hell I would just send it after them so I could have an easier time. He's my friend and just wasting his life is not something I'm willing to do. I imagine that it would be something like that for a knight, probably even more so because of all the training it takes. Just my 2 cents.

 

[sh1ny4]

I'm not an expert on medieval warfare but I have watched a fair few programs about it and read a few books. The whole idea of using a horse as a living battering ram sounds like a good idea until you realize how much training goes into making a horse, which is prey animal, obey commands when combat is raging all around them. Medieval knights formed a bond with horses which makes sense because of how much time they spent together.
While a horse certainly could be used to knock down an opponent they're still flesh and blood and eventually they're going to take an injury too. Would you want to risk the life of an animal you've spent 1000's of hours working with and training just to knock down a few soldiers in hopes you'll take them out more easily? Think about it another way, I own a 100lb American Bulldog I believe he would and could disarm a few guys who had knifes. If I were put in such a situation there's no way in hell I would just send it after them so I could have an easier time. He's my friend and just wasting his life is not something I'm willing to do. I imagine that it would be something like that for a knight, probably even more so because of all the training it takes. Just my 2 cents.

without it being a strategy, if you make a cavalry charge and your horse die in the process it's still 500+ kg in movement. You can be sure it will cause damages

 

[Apocal]

Basically, I imagine real medieval combat as something that ends much faster when the people are truly at it.

Real medieval battles took hours to conclude, often going all day and only stopping with sunset, and the majority of the losing side generally walked away alive and unharmed from it.

As for increasing charge damage:

If you want to inject physics into your discussion of tactics, a 5lbs. spear braced by a 200lbs. man won't stop that 1 ton horse moving 60km/h (this is probably heavier and faster than an armored warhorse + armored rider but whatever) either. Yet we all agree that spears would've stopped a cavalry charge, right?

Nobody thought it was a good idea to go bowling with their horses.

Adding huge trample damage without the attendant risk of being thrown off and severely injured will do more to distort the tactics in Bannerlord than having slip-and-slide charges that do puffball damage. Because if you can easily and reliably trample infantry formations wholesale, then it becomes the go-to use for cavalry.

Just look at this ****:

Every one of those flying shields is a dead infantryman.

 

[talior3]

I'm not an expert on medieval warfare but I have watched a fair few programs about it and read a few books. The whole idea of using a horse as a living battering ram sounds like a good idea until you realize how much training goes into making a horse, which is prey animal, obey commands when combat is raging all around them. Medieval knights formed a bond with horses which makes sense because of how much time they spent together.
While a horse certainly could be used to knock down an opponent they're still flesh and blood and eventually they're going to take an injury too. Would you want to risk the life of an animal you've spent 1000's of hours working with and training just to knock down a few soldiers in hopes you'll take them out more easily? Think about it another way, I own a 100lb American Bulldog I believe he would and could disarm a few guys who had knifes. If I were put in such a situation there's no way in hell I would just send it after them so I could have an easier time. He's my friend and just wasting his life is not something I'm willing to do. I imagine that it would be something like that for a knight, probably even more so because of all the training it takes. Just my 2 cents.

It sounds about right that a person won't want to lose his horse. In the RBM mod cavalry seems to be more chill and smarter, staying away from pikes and spears and not necessarily rushing to ram infantry.

However as a simulation game to me it is less of a concern what humans would do, and it's more important to have the physics aspect done right. I know of cases of car crashes where people hit a camal, yes an actual camal, and they died. It makes sense that people won't want to go on a suicide mission, but it is a simulation game where we as players want death and we want kills. Medieval battles weren't a pc game, so they didn't seek out death but we do. I think that at the very least it is agreeable that physics have to change in the native mode. And even if the behavior AI doesn't change, at least the physical aspect should match reality.

 

[talior3]

Real medieval battles took hours to conclude, often going all day and only stopping with sunset, and the majority of the losing side generally walked away alive and unharmed from it.

The behavioral aspect is hard to get right because true realism would mean a much more boring game to many people. There is a difference between human behavior AI and physics. I mostly talked about the physical aspect. The human one is much more debatable. But under the presumption that no one is afraid to die in battle and only the numbers count it seems to me that they should be more effective than they are in native mode. RBM is a very good example of massive improvement to mount and blade 2 in my opinion.

 

[Apocal]

The behavioral aspect is hard to get right because true realism would mean a much more boring game to many people. There is a difference between human behavior AI and physics. I mostly talked about the physical aspect. The human one is much more debatable. But under the presumption that no one is afraid to die in battle and only the numbers count it seems to me that they should be more effective than they are in native mode. RBM is a very good example of massive improvement to mount and blade 2 in my opinion.

If you want to talk physics:

If you want to inject physics into your discussion of tactics, a 5lbs. spear braced by a 200lbs. man won't stop that 1 ton horse moving 60km/h (this is probably heavier and faster than an armored warhorse + armored rider but whatever) either. Yet we all agree that spears would've stopped a cavalry charge, right?

Nobody thought it was a good idea to go bowling with their horses.

Adding huge trample damage without the attendant risk of being thrown off and severely injured will do more to distort the tactics in Bannerlord than having slip-and-slide charges that do puffball damage. Because if you can easily and reliably trample infantry formations wholesale, then it becomes the go-to use for cavalry.

Just look at this ****:

Every one of those flying shields is a dead infantryman.

 

[talior3]

If you want to talk physics:

Every one of those flying shields is a dead infantryman.

Seems reasonable. Btw if that makes sense then not only do I not mind but I prefer it. I like the idea that I win a battlefield fairly and that my opponents gave their best before going down.

Now, there has to be some technique or some very basic tactic of handling some damage to cavalry. These horses can trample over people and send organs flying in different directions, especially when it's a big horse going at a high speed. But there has to be some countermeasure historically speaking. I can not imagine that simply having horses is like an ace card promising 0 casualties. btw you are more than welcome to critique the physics and natural logic of the combat. Constructive criticism means a better game for all of us.

But horses going at relatively low speed will definitely feel a spear, I think. So the difference dictated by speed and energy is a big one. If the spears were stuck to the ground pointed at the horses and not that fragile I assume some horses would get pierced or at least trip somewhat.

I just want death, that is all. And I want a battle where people aren't superheroes but actual people that get injured and die very easily, like in real life. Not endless stamina.

 

[froggyluv]

As a hobby I watch endless amounts of Medieval, Mongol, Rome , Barbarian, Viking, Caliphates etcs..type docu-videos because ive always been interested in battle tactics since grade school reading on Julius Caesar. This game is far removed from reality as for one troops have endless stamina. Troops speeds never really change - no sprints or terrain hiding stealth. Troops have omniscience of their enemies at all times never requiring a LOS check. There is Morale but it's not a strong enough factor in terms of how it actually plays out on the battlefield.

Total War takes alot more of these factors in to play but of course you dont get to control any one soldier and neither is it calculating real physics in real time of each and every individuals actions. But it would be nice if TaleWorlds started at least trying to flesh out more factors of real world combat.

 

[black_bulldog]

It sounds about right that a person won't want to lose his horse. In the RBM mod cavalry seems to be more chill and smarter, staying away from pikes and spears and not necessarily rushing to ram infantry.

However as a simulation game to me it is less of a concern what humans would do, and it's more important to have the physics aspect done right. I know of cases of car crashes where people hit a camal, yes an actual camal, and they died. It makes sense that people won't want to go on a suicide mission, but it is a simulation game where we as players want death and we want kills. Medieval battles weren't a pc game, so they didn't seek out death but we do. I think that at the very least it is agreeable that physics have to change in the native mode. And even if the behavior AI doesn't change, at least the physical aspect should match reality.

Years ago I had a friend who hit a bull. The car was wrecked, didn't kill the bull but the bull was so hurt it had to be put down and I've know of people who hit moose and were killed when the antlers went through the windshield. I'm well aware a large animal can kill a human but that's not really simulating what a horse is suppose to be used for. If the game were to give a chance that the horse would be lost or injured and the rider was demoted down a tier or 2 I'd actually be ok with that. That way if the pc wanted to risk it they could.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I think you could increase the charge damage of all the horses easily if you wanted them to kill on impact. But TW want some kind of balance to troops types, even if that balance is unbalanced or far from being finished yet. If they went for realism they would need to change 100 other things for the cost and resources to replace and train men and horses, it's just not the game they made at all. Maybe MNB 3 or some new IP someday.

 

[Galdr]

700-1000kg deadweight moving at 60+ km/h