(Vote included) New update and the caravan remains 30. And it was claimed it get supported

[babelfisch]

I really don't understand why everyone, TaleWorlds included, is so hung up on the fine tuning of caravans right now. The game is a very early beta with many of its core features yet to be implemented (I hope).

Balance can wait.

I wouldn't call it fine tuning. Before the change caravans never got attacked, after the change they sometimes get attacked.
If there was a bug (or design issue) that prevents attacks on towns and castles I hope everyone would agree that this should get addressed.
The reason so many people are upset with the caravan change is that they don't like it when something becomes less profitable (which doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do...) and because it actually isn't fine tuned yet.
Personally I see no harm when 1 out of 100 developers spends a few hours to find the sweet spot for caravans. Remember, this isn't really about how many coins we make, but about how caravans should exist in the game. Should they be involved in battles or not?

 

[Jiet]

By the way I am not sure player would gain trade xp because of having caravan however companion probably would. I am not only one deciding these things will check later.

You're awesome mexxico, thanks for taking the time to respond. Getting an idea on how the mechanics work is really very helpful!

 

[Yasqueen]

I wouldn't call it fine tuning. Before the change caravans never got attacked, after the change they sometimes get attacked.
If there was a bug (or design issue) that prevents attacks on towns and castles I hope everyone would agree that this should get addressed.
The reason so many people are upset with the caravan change is that they don't like it when something becomes less profitable (which doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do...) and because it actually isn't fine tuned yet.
Personally I see no harm when 1 out of 100 developers spends a few hours to find the sweet spot for caravans. Remember, this isn't really about how many coins we make, but about how caravans should exist in the game. Should they be involved in battles or not?

I might be wrong there but I remember the Talewords team being around 80 peoples, and this count EVERYONE, from that number you've got to remember that not everyone of them are developers, truth may be that only a small fraction of them are devs, this is why we are all arguing about where the ressources must be spent

 

[Owen Wulfson]

They either need to allow for larger caravan parties or, in the alternative, allow the player more control once the caravan has been set in motion. I can stock a caravan with elite cavalry units (the trick is to meet the party member in the Keep before they leave), but that won't matter much if the caravan recruits peasants from defeated bandit parties. The group will then swell beyond 30 and your elite units will slowly start to desert the caravan. The ability to manage the party composition from afar, while unrealistic, would allow me to kick out useless units and ensure cohesion.

Strangely enough, the description for the "trade" skill is that it can be leveled by 1) selling at a profit and 2) operating caravans. Either the concept of what a "caravan" is has changed since that description was added or the original intent was that just having a caravan would add trade xp to your character. I would honestly say that if caravans produced a profit & gained you xp, then even now (losing it every so often to steppes bandits & minor factions) would make them worthwhile ventures.

At present, caravans get attacked & even destroyed before long, but they make more money every day (close to 1000-2000 denars a day). This means the caravans don't have to operate very long to break even - although this would be easier if they didn't increase the cost to 18,000 denars to start up. Even without the fantastic insurance policy perk, caravans at the moment are still a worthwhile venture.

A major benefit of caravans over workshops, on top of their profitability, is that they stay in business regardless of your faction allegiance whereas workshops (supposedly) will get confiscated. This makes the transition from neutral party to faction member far less frustrating and, for me, is one of the biggest selling points about caravans.

 

[serj]

Created 4 caravans during the week. All of them died to bandits in the following 3 weeks. Good change, early access/10

 

[babelfisch]

I might be wrong there but I remember the Talewords team being around 80 peoples, and this count EVERYONE, from that number you've got to remember that not everyone of them are developers, truth may be that only a small fraction of them are devs, this is why we are all arguing about where the ressources must be spent

Even if there are only 40 developers, it's still just one person who spend a couple of hours with it...
Anyway, stuff always gets silly when people on the internet try to tell others how they should do their job. I hope you agree...

 

[Owen Wulfson]

Created 4 caravans during the week. All of them died to bandits in the following 3 weeks. Good change, early access/10

Geeze, sorry to hear. They definitely need to tweak the system to reduce the risk of such across the board losses. I've had caravans operate for months, but maybe I was lucky?

 

[Yasqueen]

Even if there are only 40 developers, it's still just one person who spend a couple of hours with it...
Anyway, stuff always gets silly when people on the internet try to tell others how they should do their job. I hope you agree...

Based and true

 

[serj]

Geeze, sorry to hear. They definitely need to tweak the system to reduce the risk of such across the board losses. I've had caravans operate for months, but maybe I was lucky?

Its probably because I am mid-late game and bandit parties are stronger and more numerous.

 

[DrDragonlance]

Its probably because I am mid-late game and bandit parties are stronger and more numerous.

Did you gear up the Hero you have running the caravans?

I am curious how much the Hero skills help protect a caravan.

 

[Bannerman Man]

They either need to allow for larger caravan parties or, in the alternative, allow the player more control once the caravan has been set in motion. I can stock a caravan with elite cavalry units (the trick is to meet the party member in the Keep before they leave), but that won't matter much if the caravan recruits peasants from defeated bandit parties. The group will then swell beyond 30 and your elite units will slowly start to desert the caravan. The ability to manage the party composition from afar, while unrealistic, would allow me to kick out useless units and ensure cohesion.

Check out mexxico's post here. They are adding the ability to manage caravans a bit more in the near future. Also, the inspect troops loophole with the Keep menu is going to be closed along with donating troops to their party.

Also, I'm not sure they will recruit peasants past their party limit. If you have directly observed that maybe start a bug thread in the support forum with pictures/videos demonstrating it.

 

[This_Banana]

why not allow the player to choose the caravan size? larger caravan = more costs, less risk and less profit.

+1

 

[serj]

Did you gear up the Hero you have running the caravans?

I am curious how much the Hero skills help protect a caravan.

They were 140 one handed/200 two handed type guys with mid tier armor like 32/10/10 chest, 30 helm, 15 boots and 20 something gloves with reinforced round shield or w/e and with a one-handed viking-ish sword i crafted myself (275 smithing) selling price 17k.

 

[Tobi7043]

I again tested latest situation by forming 3 different caravans at game start. I give my character 3 caravan forming cost money by cheat and formed 3 caravans, one at Aserai town Quyaz, one at Sturgia town Omor and one at Khuzait town Chaikand. Only one is destroyed at day 15. After 10 days past from the day it is destroyed I formed another caravan from same town. In total I formed 4 caravans. The latest one I formed and two of first three caravans survived at the end of first year. They all bring me 114K, I payed about 30K for caravan wages. In total I ended year with 96K of money just doing nothing but waiting in a town (some money remained from initial money cheats thats why my end money is not fit perfectly). Also still I have 3 caravans running probably they will bring me another 100K until they are destroyed.

Of course situation can change in late game (where bandits are 3x powered) or if you have lots of enemies or if you executed lots of lords in Calradia and if bandits are overpopulated however I made another test this morning in late game (year 1093) too. Situation was not so different, a bit risky than this. Some players get used to earn much from caravans (1K daily for long years like 400 days in total 400K from one caravan) however these caravans are not supposed to feed your armies. These are side mechanics. If you do not like new numbers and risks you do not have to form them. They were so OP before after nerf they are still good, if you see no value you do not have to form them. If player swims in money game become not challanging. We are also aware of lord battles are so easy and give tons of loot they will be fixed too. Different people are responsible from different parts. We are not trying to make game so hard but it should be reasonable not so hard not so easy.

I know game has missing features, some perks are not working, there are less quests less diplomacy options, war peace mechanics are a bit basic currently. Here lots of people are working for a better game in weird world conditions and everybody has their own responsible areas. Any of us cannot fix problems out of our responsible areas. I am trying to make parts which I am responsible better. If you need other things to be fixed before balancing / trade issues you need to reach people responsible from these parts, they are all aware of problems and working hard too. I am here sharing developments with you and getting your ideas / feedbacks to create a better and balanced trade systems.

Any changed formula or game rule is not final point currently. We will collect datas watch gameplays and do needed adjustments in next patches if needed.

We know you want more micro management at parts you are spending time at game. All ideas will be evaluated. According to priority and time we will schedule and implement some of them.

Thank you for the tests, i see you have been active on the forums and i apploud you for that, its still much easier to make money then in warband, also comparing it to how much money it weapons and so on costs, but i like it, it looks like its going good, and i thank you for your efforts hope you will find the middle ground you and the developer team is looking for.

 

[Agroplode]

I again tested latest situation by forming 3 different caravans at game start. I give my character 3 caravan forming cost money by cheat and formed 3 caravans, one at Aserai town Quyaz, one at Sturgia town Omor and one at Khuzait town Chaikand. Only one is destroyed at day 15. After 10 days past from the day it is destroyed I formed another caravan from same town. In total I formed 4 caravans. The latest one I formed and two of first three caravans survived at the end of first year. They all bring me 114K, I payed about 30K for caravan wages. In total I ended year with 96K of money just doing nothing but waiting in a town (some money remained from initial money cheats thats why my end money is not fit perfectly). Also still I have 3 caravans running probably they will bring me another 100K until they are destroyed.

Of course situation can change in late game (where bandits are 3x powered) or if you have lots of enemies or if you executed lots of lords in Calradia and if bandits are overpopulated however I made another test this morning in late game (year 1093) too. Situation was not so different, a bit risky than this. Some players get used to earn much from caravans (1K daily for long years like 400 days in total 400K from one caravan) however these caravans are not supposed to feed your armies. These are side mechanics. If you do not like new numbers and risks you do not have to form them. They were so OP before after nerf they are still good, if you see no value you do not have to form them. If player swims in money game become not challanging. We are also aware of lord battles are so easy and give tons of loot they will be fixed too. Different people are responsible from different parts. We are not trying to make game so hard but it should be reasonable not so hard not so easy.

I know game has missing features, some perks are not working, there are less quests less diplomacy options, war peace mechanics are a bit basic currently. Here lots of people are working for a better game in weird world conditions and everybody has their own responsible areas. Any of us cannot fix problems out of our responsible areas. I am trying to make parts which I am responsible better. If you need other things to be fixed before balancing / trade issues you need to reach people responsible from these parts, they are all aware of problems and working hard too. I am here sharing developments with you and getting your ideas / feedbacks to create a better and balanced trade systems.

Any changed formula or game rule is not final point currently. We will collect datas watch gameplays and do needed adjustments in next patches if needed.

We know you want more micro management at parts you are spending time at game. All ideas will be evaluated. According to priority and time we will schedule and implement some of them.

You dont need Caravans, Workshops or Battle loot to defeat the game. We have difficulty settings, we can use very easy and win without ever spending money on anything with the exception of buying some grain if need at start.

For start I hunt looters, for loot and exp and to get peasants for my new army.
Next I pick small bandit groups and ride around them, so my peasants can get close and kill them all, I get loot including weapons and armor
Hideouts with few bandits are also easy prey for a near naked hero with starter gear and 9 peasants.
Continue to hunt looters to increase status and get more peasants and get into a faction as LORD with peasant army.
Join any Field Army for sieges and big battles that you know are easy wins. more loot and one day a fief
Army wages for Lord Undefeated Peasant 0,-

Just please let us control as much of the Sandbox game that you can, its what makes me use 100s of hours here.

 

[Ted Striker]

Guys, talk to your Caravan leader in the keep before they leave, change to 30 horsemen of any kind and the caravan will move at 7.5 speed(ish).

Your caravan will never be captured. I've got my own kingdom frequently at war and all 3 of my caravans have survived for years now.

Plus make the caravan origin is the furthest away from any possible front.

Also a companion with high trade has sometimes got me 3k+ (look for spicevendors)

Get Better and stop whingeing.

edit : sorry if this has been repeated but after reading 2 pages i was pulling my hair out

You can talk to your caravan companion and change the units? Never knew that was a thing.

 

[Woopzilla]

Not for long though: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...o-patch-for-2-days.417945/page-2#post-9387135

You will not be able to change troops of villagers / caravans / militias with donate troops option.

 

[artemis_entreri]

I personally don't really care. Caravans were a waste of time pre-patch (I'm literally swimming in cash thanks to battle loot and a few workshops/towns to pay for my army, no need to send my companions to make more), and they are right now due to not being remotely profitable.

Caravans are certainly profitable. I would say definitely worth using in 1.2.0

 

[durbal]

Economic balance needs to be there for folks to enjoy other things. If you can’t get the war machine going, you can’t participate in those other features. Sadly for players, they didn’t realize the economy was overturned to start

Caravans aren't even the biggest issue though. Trade in general is way too lucrative. And it's a bigger problem that the AI doesn't do it, since now we can't make adjustments to real money sinks like troop costs and such without the AI collapsing economically.

The whole caravan system is wonky and feels bolted-on anyway. Why do I pay a flat cost and spawn magical defenders? I need to assign a companion, yet wouldn't it make more sense to be able to just give some troops to a companion and tell them to go trade through a command? Why do I need to go through this special caravan guy?

Then if they actually implemented caravans/trading through a companion order the AI could use it too with clan members and such I'd bet. It'd follow the same rules for capture/release as for normal battles. I could tell them to join my army when they're around. I could do everything I normally do with companions without the super wonky caravan system.

Traditional caravans for village/city nobles would be fine and could remain since they're just optional bags of money and a way for towns to gain goods not produced by their villages. But the whole concept of caravans being this special thing for player and AI clan nobles? Why? It's a dead-end in terms of development and potential.

 

[NamingIsHard]

I understand that the designers don't want caravans to be too cost-efficient, therefore they increase the risk of caravan. However, simply setting a hard limit(30-man) on caravan size looks terrible. what about reduce the base size of caravan, but allow the size to be increased by leader's skill level/family level?
But I agree with many others in this thread, features like this one,which can easily be adjusted by mod, are not supposed to be a major focus of the developer team. Taleworlds should focus more on bug fix, algorithm improvement and feature implementation