Um..the so called "Road Map" doesn't actually mention any new content....

[Folca]

Not that the terminology difference is all that important to me - but it appears paramount to you, for some reason I don't quite get.

Clear, consensual terminology is the basis of any constructive discussion. If it's not present then everyone ends up talking past one another (plentiful examples of that in this thread) and discussion is more prone to devolve towards, as you put it:

I'll take the chance to say that a lot of people seem to be taking any criticism terribly personal, like it was their mothers we insulted.

The way I see it, a lot of this discussion stems from mismatched terminology of new content, existing content and their implied meanings.

New content, on the one hand, is content not yet within the game. It might be a part of the game at some point, but that is not a definitive given. Many ideas and suggestions exist within the realm of new content. It's good to push these issues and show your support for them as their implementation hangs in the balance.

Existing content, on the other hand, is content that already is part of the game, in some way, shape or form. It stands to reason that this content, especially in an EA game, will be fleshed out and expanded upon. If it is broken, or somehow lacking, it will be fixed. Discontinuing further implementation of this content would invariably result in an unfinished game.


Now let's take your non-exhaustive list of proposed changes as an example:

Personally, I'd like to see at least these (not exclusive):
A diplomacy system would be a new feature, since what we currently have by all accounts amount to little more than a call to Math.Random() every X hours, and if it returns the right value, war is declared. Re-enabling the existing button to initialize war/peace does not constitute a Diplomacy system, therefore that would be a new feature.

More quests - perhaps. Depends on their nature, but that could constitute new features, if they turn out to be more in-depth than "train X soldiers" or "carry item X to location Y.

Kingdom Management - is arguably existing, though given how barebones it is, fixing it might constitute enough to call it a new feature.

Dynasty features - again, arguable whether it's an existing feature, if it is it's not implemented: while players can marry and have children, NPC lords cannot (or at least do not) marry or generate children except for what they start out with, leaving the whole idea broken and pointless

This is a very good list. I agree with all of it and I'd be surprised if anyone had a different opinion. However, you yourself find yourself on the fence on whether to attribute (emboldened) these topics to new content or existing content, understandably so. Ultimately you lean more towards new content, and make some good arguments for it, but in the end it's still a matter of opinion. Many others, myself included, would say that these issues are part of existing content. Their implementation, somewhere down the line and given enough patience, is a given, because otherwise this would be an unfinished game. When we bought this game, we did so in good faith, trusting the explicit promise of the developers that this would become a finished game.

Some people might have lost that good faith, but, however saddening, there's nothing to be done about that at this point immediately. Perhaps it'll be renewed as they're proven wrong or perhaps they'll be proven right in the first place altogether. We'll have to wait and see, anything in between will amount to little more than pointless bickering.

what I take umbrage at is whenever anyone dares criticize, they're met by a chorus of "it's early access moron"

Understandable you take offence at that. It's poorly articulated, but the ''It's EA'' reply automatically assumes you are, like them, of the it's existing content persuasion. They still possess that same good faith and believe these issues will be resolved and fleshed out down the line no matter what. You just have to be patient. If you however believe that it's new content and, if not implemented, the developers won't be breaking their promise, that's another point of view altogether, one that merits discussion.

 

[Mikey]

I'll be fine if what we have gets refined and modders get the tools to really turn out something amazing. I'm so looking forward the the lotr mod.

Okay, so you're fine with getting sold a set of modding tools, and rely on the (amazing) community of modders to essentially make a new game. Seems to clash a little with this though:

I feel I've had my moneys worth.

Wow, okay, you sure are easy to please, but good for you - really.

The levels of hyperbole and entitlement of some here is embarrasing. I put it down to the infantile narssistic age in which we live.

If anything is embarrassing, childlike and infantile it's this need to insult and belittle anyone who dares criticize the game.

 

[Mikey]

Clear, consensual terminology is the basis of any constructive discussion. If it's not present then everyone ends up talking past one another

Fair enough, and agreed. Though I don't really think the distinction between "content" and "feature" is all that meaningful.

The way I see it, a lot of this discussion stems from mismatched terminology of new content, existing content and their implied meanings.

Perhaps. See, personally I think it's possible that everything will be okay - but if so, Taleworlds need to come out of the bush and let us know more (much more) about their plans - because their current communication suggests that no substantial new content will be coming, and if that's not the case, they ought to set the record straight. Unlikely, given their track record - communication is not their forte, to put it mildly.

New content, on the one hand, is content not yet within the game. It might be a part of the game at some point, but that is not a definitive given. Many ideas and suggestions exist within the realm of new content. It's good to push these issues and show your support for them as their implementation hangs in the balance.

Existing content, on the other hand, is content that already is part of the game, in some way, shape or form. It stands to reason that this content, especially in an EA game, will be fleshed out and expanded upon. If it is broken, or somehow lacking, it will be fixed. Discontinuing further implementation of this content would invariably result in an unfinished game.

Right, generally can't argue with that, however it ties into what I said above - if what we're looking at is a communication's issue, then the ball is in TW's court to set the record straight, and in a much more definitive fashion than they've done so far. On the other hand, I can only assume that what they've said is the truth, and I'm personally far from happy with what that promises for the game (an unfinished one indeed).

you yourself find yourself on the fence on whether to attribute (emboldened) these topics to new content or existing content, understandably so. Ultimately you lean more towards new content, and make some good arguments for it, but in the end it's still a matter of opinion.

It is. Which is why I find it paramount to come out and say "hey, TW, that's not good enough". If they then feel like correcting me, then I'll be fine with that - but I'm giving them the respect of taking their word for things, rather than attributing some fever dream fantasy of "what might be" that goes directly against what they've said so far.

Some people might have lost that good faith, but, however saddening, there's nothing to be done about that at this point immediately.

Well... it could be easily sorted if it is indeed a matter of "assuming the worst" in my part, but like I've said I find it unlikely. In any case, I feel I need to say my piece - and they can (and most likely will) ignore it - but that at least, I can do nothing about.

They still possess that same good faith and believe these issues will be resolved and fleshed out down the line no matter what. You just have to be patient.

And that's alright, but they don't need to belittle and insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees. Though I must admit I've stooped to that level myself a few times, so it's not like I'm going to pretend I'm any kind of saint, heh.

For the record, I'd love to have my cynical ass proven thoroughly wrong.

 

[MostBlunted]

Just check Mexxicos last posts, doesn´t seem like the devs really do know what they want to implent or how...

 

[eddiemccandless]

Just check Mexxicos last posts, doesn´t seem like the devs really do know what they want to implent or how...

Link?

 

[Bob Gnarly]

I'm having a great time with the game as it stands, although there's lots of room for improvement. 250+ hours on steam.

I'll be fine if what we have gets refined and modders get the tools to really turn out something amazing. I'm so looking forward the the lotr mod.

I feel I've had my moneys worth. The levels of hyperbole and entitlement of some here is embarrasing. I put it down to the infantile narssistic age in which we live.

I'm right there with you Speedkermit.

I've got around the same hours as you, almost completely conquered the entire map in my 3rd playthough and looking forward to trying another way of playing in my next. Been awhile since I've sunk this amount of time into a game, so I got my value out of it already.

In saying that, Warband was good, but what made it great were the modders. Bannerlord is still a year away from release, modders don't have modding tools yet, we're still a loooong way away from seeing the games full potential.

 

[NordicWill]

So, this thread argues the roadmap is lacking because it fails to outline new content. Insofar as I have seen, nine pages in, there still is no consensus on what new content actually entails.

OP is saying that new content has to be something radically new and cannot be anything already in the game, no matter how bareboned it is:



I take this to mean that fixing or fleshing out existing aspects of the game does not qualify as new content. It has to be a completely new aspect or mechanic that's added in.

However, when someone argues that this interpretation of new content is essentially DLC, he's absurd, premature and strawmanning the argument:



So what is new content? At this point it appears to occupy the mystical space of not present in the game in any way, shape or form and not being DLC worthy. It's also important to note that DLC and paid DLC are not one and the same, as that nuance seems to have eluded some.

In conclusion, this sentiment seems to summarize this thread up to this point quite well:

70% of threads on this forum posted go into detail covering "wishes" or ideas of deeper diplomacy, improvements in combat tactics, kingdom management etc. I personally made my first thread ever speaking of areas to add depth to the issues of prison management and diplomacy. In this tread a few have mentioned that we expected this game even at EA to match similarly with a hybrid of Viking conquest and AD 1257. That is "new" if compared to warband and current state of BL.
Even though VC was a DLC no one here is asking for DLC. I personally wanted BL as EA to surpass warband in its current state, including a handful of mods. That i know is debatable but i really don't see much replay value in BL at the moment and i can't give it the old "it EA" as justification.

 

[xdj1nn]

70% of threads on this forum posted go into detail covering "wishes" or ideas of deeper diplomacy, improvements in combat tactics, kingdom management etc. I personally made my first thread ever speaking of areas to add depth to the issues of prison management and diplomacy. In this tread a few have mentioned that we expected this game even at EA to match similarly with a hybrid of Viking conquest and AD 1257. That is "new" if compared to warband and current state of BL.
Even though VC was a DLC no one here is asking for DLC. I personally wanted BL as EA to surpass warband in its current state, including a handful of mods. That i know is debatable but i really don't see much replay value in BL at the moment and i can't give it the old "it EA" as justification.

You feel that because it really doesn't have replay value. I know you are trying to be persuasive and humble, but the truth is that, and there's no argument or point that can change that. Replay value is measured by some very specific traits on a video game, BL is lacking all of them. Sure, we can replay by creating a new "sub-game" of role playing in our heads, but there really isn't anything new under the sun. With the current nerfs to oblivion, even playstyles were narrowed, so you'll basically switch a non-XP-gaining grind cycle for a XP gaining grind cycle whenever you start a new game, then you can play dolls with the toon and switch armors to match some culture, still in the end it's the same thing all over again with really minor changes.

I think that BL in the current state is best if "tested", if "played" it'll give a bitter taste on one's mouth (again, there are exceptions to the rule, some people can have fun with much more ease than others, but those are a really small minority, and they'd be having fun with practically anything). So, to me too much TTing is bad, as well as too much praise, I'm always striving to simply wait to see what they are cooking, when they ask feedback I shall give, there's no point on creating numerous Captain Obvious threads saying the same thing over and over and over again that are REALLY unlikely to not be known to the devs.

My first week playing I did that, flooded threats but as time went by I've realized that it was useless, most of my old threads disappeared over-time, and there are countless threads talking about really similar things. I just hope that TW doesn't make the mistake of giving in into vocal minorities screaming for changes and removals when we didn't even had the chance to test things properly.

 

[NordicWill]

You feel that because it really doesn't have replay value. I know you are trying to be persuasive and humble, but the truth is that, and there's no argument or point that can change that. Replay value is measured by some very specific traits on a video game, BL is lacking all of them. Sure, we can replay by creating a new "sub-game" of role playing in our heads, but there really isn't anything new under the sun. With the current nerfs to oblivion, even playstyles were narrowed, so you'll basically switch a non-XP-gaining grind cycle for a XP gaining grind cycle whenever you start a new game, then you can play dolls with the toon and switch armors to match some culture, still in the end it's the same thing all over again with really minor changes.

I think that BL in the current state is best if "tested", if "played" it'll give a bitter taste on one's mouth (again, there are exceptions to the rule, some people can have fun with much more ease than others, but those are a really small minority, and they'd be having fun with practically anything). So, to me too much TTing is bad, as well as too much praise, I'm always striving to simply wait to see what they are cooking, when they ask feedback I shall give, there's no point on creating numerous Captain Obvious threads saying the same thing over and over and over again that are REALLY unlikely to not be known to the devs.

I agree with this and why i have slowed down my commenting in this thread and activity on the forum the past week. I personally am just going to remain hopeful the game delivers a few things i expected and pray for a speedy mod access date.

 

[iimstevo]

I'll take that under advisement.

Honestly, at this point? No, given that we're stuck with this abomination of a development/release process called "Early Access" I'd rather they focus on completing the game, then fix/polish/balance once all the bits are in there. However, it looks like Taleworlds consider "all the bits" already there, so that's rather worrying, considering how shallow and barebones the game is.

Who's not making sense now? I never asked for DLC, talking about DLC is absurd and incredibly premature. So nice strawman, but no. I don't want DLC, neither does anybody with half a brain.

Again with the DLC. Say it with me: Nobody wants DLC at the current stage. And sure, it's possible that there are lots of planned, magical features coming but then they need to come out and say it. That's literally what this is about: We're concerned and unhappy that it looks like Taleworlds considers the game feature-complete, and only wants to fix up whatever is broken. Because that's IMO not acceptable.

Yeah I don't think you're one to talk buddy, considering how you've failed to grasp the point of the thread.

Well, like the other dude quoted, you're chatting bollocks by complaining about "new features" and "new content" which isn't DLC...
So you do want the game fixed, you're just impatient and having an entitled rant.

 

[Rungsted93]

I just really don't get the argument that we're not allowed to expect more just because we played the game and had fun. I don't think people are having unrealistic expectations in this thread, and it really just boils down to us all wishing for the game to be the very best iteration of what it can be.
The core aspects of the game are certainly there, but there's certainly also aspects where it feels they cut quite a lot of corners and went with the bare minimum of what people would accept.

 

[Mikey]

Well, like the other dude quoted, you're chatting bollocks by complaining about "new features" and "new content" which isn't DLC...
So you do want the game fixed, you're just impatient and having an entitled rant.

Good luck with your cult. Maybe you'll realize someday that people were right to point out flaws while there was time, but you're not there yet.

 

[ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal]

I just really don't get the argument that we're not allowed to expect more just because we played the game and had fun. I don't think people are having unrealistic expectations in this thread, and it really just boils down to us all wishing for the game to be the very best iteration of what it can be.
The core aspects of the game are certainly there, but there's certainly also aspects where it feels they cut quite a lot of corners and went with the bare minimum of what people would accept.

Agreed. The potential of such a genre and therefore the series was realized ten years ago. I mean ten ****ing years. And in ten years Taleworlds still doesn't have a clear plan as to how they could reach that potential in the slightest?

 

[xdj1nn]

Agreed. The potential of such a genre and therefore the series was realized ten years ago. I mean ten ****ing years. And in ten years Taleworlds still doesn't have a clear plan as to how they could reach that potential in the slightest?

Well, gotta pull your leg here... Game Development is not as easy as you're putting it, if it was, I'd ask, why then doesn't any random fellow create incredible games?
I know answer, and I bet you do to... It's never simple... Something that works on paper doesn't necessarily works on practice. It's easy to have uneducated ideas for games or even movies, but in practice you must know what you're going to face on production. From my PoV (and I am already really REAAALLY harsh on TW), I think they've lost it, they've made some mistakes, there were logistical issues, and they didn't really plan their own brain-storm (original idea). During production there were a significant amount of announced cuts, but I bet that there were even more non-announced that nobody knows about, and I'm being harsh just to be saying this. I still find the game to be in a okay direction, but I doubt it's as bad as you're painting. Creatively speaking, you sir, are more likely to be the clueless one than they are.

As for me? I'm the idea man, it's like my profession since always, and I have both the academic formation to do that and know about these things called Game Development due to a thing called Bachelor, and what I see here is that mostly it's bad implementation rather lack of. At this point they can't fix some things that I believe to be wrong in the game, because it's on a really late stage, but their game is in a much better shape than most EAs that have achieve incredible success (like that ridiculous Space something EDIT: researched, that No Man's Sky)

What saddens me, as a fan, is that this game will take a long while to be good, cause as of now, it's just bare bones, so they need to give meat to the game before it can be complemented and given fashion looks and other nonsense. Considering some factors, my best guess it's that it'll take from now, at least 6 up to 12 months for the base game, and at least 6 more for some cool additions or "cut recoveries"

 

[ParagonWelken]

Well, gotta pull your leg here... Game Development is not as easy as you're putting it, if it was, I'd ask, why then doesn't any random fellow create incredible games?
I know answer, and I bet you do to... It's never simple... Something that works on paper doesn't necessarily works on practice. It's easy to have uneducated ideas for games or even movies, but in practice you must know what you're going to face on production. From my PoV (and I am already really REAAALLY harsh on TW), I think they've lost it, they've made some mistakes, there were logistical issues, and they didn't really plan their own brain-storm (original idea). During production there were a significant amount of announced cuts, but I bet that there were even more non-announced that nobody knows about, and I'm being harsh just to be saying this. I still find the game to be in a okay direction, but I doubt it's as bad as you're painting. Creatively speaking, you sir, are more likely to be the clueless one than they are.

As for me? I'm the idea man, it's like my profession since always, and I have both the academic formation to do that and know about these things called Game Development due to a thing called Bachelor, and what I see here is that mostly it's bad implementation rather lack of. At this point they can't fix some things that I believe to be wrong in the game, because it's on a really late stage, but their game is in a much better shape than most EAs that have achieve incredible success (like that ridiculous Space something EDIT: researched, that No Man's Sky)

What saddens me, as a fan, is that this game will take a long while to be good, cause as of now, it's just bare bones, so they need to give meat to the game before it can be complemented and given fashion looks and other nonsense. Considering some factors, my best guess it's that it'll take from now, at least 6 up to 12 months for the base game, and at least 6 more for some cool additions or "cut recoveries"

This. I agree here. As a fan of the series, I hope this moves along before the steam generated by the release fizzles. I would like to see TW turn this into an even greater cult following than original M&B, and draw even more into the series. More faithfuls is good for everyone.

I knew going into this that an EA meant a lot of unpolished but hidden gems, and what I see is the potential to surpass what they've done before. The system in place definitely speaks to a great chance of that. The issue here is not whether or not BL will become something great, but when that will be. Will it be in a short enough window to keep current fans satisfied and new fans interested? Only time will tell that, sadly.

It's hard to wait that out, especially if you're someone who had your sights on this from the beginning. As a latecomer to the series, I have grown a near fanatical love for this, and am torn because of how unfinished it all is, but I have been through EA/Beta test scenarios before, and its nothing new, really. This process takes time, because if you DO want to appease the larger majority of your fans, you have to do it right and not randomly throw things at the wall to see what sticks.

I won't openly praise TW as game dev gods, but I will give credit where credit is due and state that this is a LOT more smooth and progressive than many other EA/Beta projects of which I've been a part.