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NATO would have a problem responding to a tactical nuke. Difficult to be optimistic in the UK ATM, knowing Liz has our nuclear button in her handbag. She's not known for discussing her next move in Cabinet.
Liz is the NATO detterent, I completely forgot about her one useful role: playing the madman nuclear strategy with Putin.
That she has a need to destroy the UK economy and public services is your internal problem, mate. :razz:

You respond to a tactical nuke by a similarly destructive demonstration. You can't let it slide. And you give the button to the Ukrainians and repaint the missiles because technically you are not at war with Russia.
 
Liz is the NATO detterent, I completely forgot about her one useful role: playing the madman nuclear strategy with Putin.
That she has a need to destroy the UK economy and public services is your internal problem, mate. :razz:

You respond to a tactical nuke by a similarly destructive demonstration. You can't let it slide. And you give the button to the Ukrainians and repaint the missiles because technically you are not at war with Russia.
Nuking someone might distract attention from her half-cocked mini-budget. https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2022/08/24/truss-nuclear-weapons/ Just not sure who she'd target. Might be friend or foe Macron rather than Putin.
 
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NATO would have a problem responding to a tactical nuke.
The conundrum is that MAD only works if both sides commit. If one side uses nukes and the other doesn't, then it sends a clear message that retaliation only occurs under certain circumstances. That is an extremely dangerous precedent, and what would probably ensue is the most devastating game of brinkmanship in history. The instigator would continue pushing it until they met resistance, and who knows how many lives would be destroyed--literally and figuratively--in the process. The resistance might trigger cyclical retaliation, too, if it wasn't a full commitment to complete destruction. Best to avoid all of that.

Also, their neutral trading buddies would abandon them for being dangerously irresponsible and they will be isolated from most of the world, not just the West.
This is practically a given. Any nation that maintained any ties with Russia would become a pariah right along with them.
 
Armenia is quite literally caught in the middle of all this. They have ties to both Europe - with membership in several institutions - and the east. Especially Iran and Russia. If they go against Russia they'll stand alone with Turkey, Russia, Azerbaijan and Iran as neighboring countries.
 
The conundrum is that MAD only works if both sides commit. If one side uses nukes and the other doesn't, then it sends a clear message that retaliation only occurs under certain circumstances. That is an extremely dangerous precedent, and what would probably ensue is the most devastating game of brinkmanship in history. The instigator would continue pushing it until they met resistance, and who knows how many lives would be destroyed--literally and figuratively--in the process. The resistance might trigger cyclical retaliation, too, if it wasn't a full commitment to complete destruction. Best to avoid all of that.


This is practically a given. Any nation that maintained any ties with Russia would become a pariah right along with them.
Mutually Assured Destruction as a theory applies to the use of strategic nuclear weapons targeting homelands, not tactical nukes in foriegn battlefields. During the cold war NATO strategy relied on tactical nukes to offset the sheer numbers of Soviet tanks. We never committed sufficient conventional forces to stem the tide any other way. IDK if NATO ever told the Germans their country would be a radio-active wasteland. Putin's bound to have read our old plans and made his own accordingly.
 
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The great nuke scare is just the usual Russian infowars tactics.
Strategic nukes will not be used. MAD principle will have to deter Russia from that because preparing the launch of a strategic nuke will mean a direct confrontation with other nuclear countries.
Tactical nukes might be used but they do not win Russia the war. They can't achieve anything conventional weapons can't, except for hysteria in the west.
 
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Mutually Assured Destruction as a theory applies to the use of strategic nuclear weapons targeting homelands, not tactical nukes in foriegn battlefields.
My point is that the use of any nuclear weapon (as unlikely as that possibility is, realistically) would escalate the conflict unpredictably, because it's not something any other nuclear power could let slide. It pushes against a boundary thus-far respected by all nuclear powers (including Russia) in past wars, e.g. Korea, Vietnam, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq 1 & 2, Afghanistan 2 Electric Boogaloo, weird rock fights on the border between China and India, you name it. Even when there were American generals (MacArthur) chomping at the bit to drop nukes in Korea it didn't happen, and that was with the impetus from doing it twice five years before in Japan. Everyone has managed to keep their nukes in their pants, figuratively speaking, since 1945. Reopening that box in a war of aggression against a non-nuclear-armed neighbor for a land grab is the worst way to do it, and how do you punish a nation which has shown such reckless disregard for the damage they have caused except in kind? All the economic sanctions in the world won't reduce their nuclear stockpile, and once they start using that stockpile you can't know when they'll stop. It hasn't happened before.
 
My point is that the use of any nuclear weapon (as unlikely as that possibility is, realistically) would escalate the conflict unpredictably, because it's not something any other nuclear power could let slide. It pushes against a boundary thus-far respected by all nuclear powers (including Russia) in past wars, e.g. Korea, Vietnam, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq 1 & 2, Afghanistan 2 Electric Boogaloo, weird rock fights on the border between China and India, you name it. Even when there were American generals (MacArthur) chomping at the bit to drop nukes in Korea it didn't happen, and that was with the impetus from doing it twice five years before in Japan. Everyone has managed to keep their nukes in their pants, figuratively speaking, since 1945. Reopening that box in a war of aggression against a non-nuclear-armed neighbor for a land grab is the worst way to do it, and how do you punish a nation which has shown such reckless disregard for the damage they have caused except in kind? All the economic sanctions in the world won't reduce their nuclear stockpile, and once they start using that stockpile you can't know when they'll stop. It hasn't happened before.
I understand your point, but as I said, NATO plans required us to set those expectations aside and use tactical nukes vs Soviet tank armies during the Cold War. Presumably with the hope that this would not escalate to an intercontinental exchange of strategic nukes. Putin may have similar plans.
 
That could be a reasonable strategy in the 50s but certainly not in a modern war. Mostly because conventional weapons have since developed so profoundly while the nukes were never significantly modernized, at least in Russia.
Tactical nukes can be used, but mostly for political, not military gains. They always want to play the chicken game with the West, because they are pretty sure they will always win it.
 
That could be a reasonable strategy in the 50s but certainly not in a modern war. Mostly because conventional weapons have since developed so profoundly while the nukes were never significantly modernized, at least in Russia.
Tactical nukes can be used, but mostly for political, not military gains. They always want to play the chicken game with the West, because they are pretty sure they will always win it.
I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
 
I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
I’m actually not contradicting you.
The difference in our positions that I see is that you treat tactical nukes more like WMD, while I see them as a political tool.
I would prefer to treat them solely as WMD. Because it would decrease the probability of them being used.
 
I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
If the Ukrainians unleash unstoppable tank armies driving at vital Russian centers, the Russians may use tactical nukes to stop those. But just to stop a conventional advance on Luhansk, which they are probably capable of, is an overkill.
It's just rhetoric and idle threats to mess with the minds of their enemies.
And without doubt, you are their enemy. The Russian Federation doesn't like you personally. They want to freeze your nuts off.
 
If the Ukrainians unleash unstoppable tank armies driving at vital Russian centers, the Russians may use tactical nukes to stop those. But just to stop a conventional advance on Luhansk, which they are probably capable of, is an overkill.
It's just rhetoric and idle threats to mess with the minds of their enemies.
And without doubt, you are their enemy. The Russian Federation doesn't like you personally. They want to freeze your nuts off.
I thought he might use them to save political embarrassment that might end his career and life, not for any practical military purpose.
 
I thought he might use them to save political embarrassment that might end his career and life, not for any practical military purpose.
Using a tactical nuke is more likely to end his career and life, not only because of the retribution, but because he would make Russia a big North Korea. I'm sure that there are enough powerful establishment Russians that would be enticed to act if he destroys their collective future.

Speaking of nukes, it should be fairly easy for the West to track their vehicle delivery systems movement and take them out if they get in position. Maybe that's Putin's best move, to provoke such a reaction.
 
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