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Dragomir

Knight
WB
Leifr Eiríksson said:
They ought not be sheath able, though. It's an inconsistency that is rather annoying.

I second that as well. Though best thing would be to show them sheathed behind the shield... After all the throwing spears are still shorter than the short spear.
 

hrotha

Grandmaster Knight
WBNWWF&SVC
I support throwing weapons in general doing more damage to shields, to compensate for their inability to unbalance them. Möck mentioned the cavalry spear thrust was getting a damage boost in the next patch, too.

Ozwan, you only get thrown off the horse when you're not used to how cavalry works in Víkingr. Experienced horsemen are as lethal as ever, but they know better than to approach infantry at full gallop. As I always say, unrealistic tweaks to produce a realistic (for the 10th-11th centuries) result: cavalry mainly as a skirmishing force. I'd suggest setting up your own private server and playing TDM against a bunch of bots. You'll pick it up.
 

FrisianDude

Archduke
M&BWB
Leifr Eiríksson said:
There are a select few players whom destroy anything that stands on two feet if they're on horse back.
Yep, my experience as well. And a far larger group who can destroy me easily, whether on foot or on horse. :razz:
 
Still looking for some changes made to the ranged aspect of Víkingr. Leofwine and I made this thread detailing the problem last year but it was ultimately buried under a mountain of irritation and accusatory fingers. Some of that OP has now been made redundant; I think we did see a slight alteration in the archer:melee ratio and we did see some shuffling with regards to item selection. Other alterations (bows being dropped on weapon change) and fancy Moescripts have further impacted on the use of the bow in Víkingr. However, I'd like to pitch a few ideas with the current iteration of Víkingr in mind.
I'm not looking for a nerf of archery or any form of devaluing the class. I want to enforce a little more imagination and intelligent play in the class. It's very easy to exploit the game engine against the changes Víkingr makes as a mod overall.

  • Currently archers are free to walk around with an arrow nocked and the string pulled taut. Backpuddlin' and pulling off shots into the approaching axe-man should not be possible. Archer caught out in the open by the horseman? No problem, he's able to side-step (providing he is quick!) and release an arrow into the rider or the horse as they pass by. Root the archer to the ground when LEFT_CLICK is used and give him a reason to intelligently think of his positioning in the fight before the arrow is released.
  • ...draw, draw, draw, draw. Implement an extremely low chance of the string snapping on each use of the bow. Archers are free to continually pull back the string with no penalty until they choose to release the arrow. Spears have a low chance of breaking on weapon hit, it barely impacts upon the melee aspect of the mod but it does give a player some reason for concern if they're caught short. String can be replaced if the player is willing to forsake several seconds.
  • I would not be opposed to a slight increase of quiver size if the above are considered and implemented.


And a little something from earlier in the month.

Leifr Eiríksson said:
Here's a super-radical idea...

Still finding swords to be far too prevalent in Víkingr. They can be taken exclusively in the first round; a decent player (ergo; regular) will typically find no extra effort involved in scoring a few kills to sustain the silver. Hell; the Hersir sword can be taken on the first round. I would see them pushed out of reach of the first or second rounds with a cost increase across the board. The heavier pieces of armour generally only make an appearance if a team has had a good innings or if a player has absolutely decimated the opposing side (in rare instances) - yet they make their presence on the field of battle enough times to really make it count. It often feels to be an achievement of some kind (for the lower ranked classes) to wear mail; it should be like this for the use of a decent sword. There's a few players whom come to mind when I think of excessive and over-reliance on the superior nature of the weapon...



It was also briefly touched upon here (after the above post) that the return of blocking ought return to a select few items. I am of two minds here for I cannot decide if it is a sensible thing or not. I currently think spears are fine as they are and don't need any further tweaking (which is contrary to a lot of the sword folk :razz:) however I would be in the mind to see the dane-axes regain some form of functionality excepting the absolute largest of them.



As always, sensible comments and replies please. Take the time to read the post before rising ye're choler to the point of tears. I would appreciate something from Moeckerkalfie with what is being changed for the forthcoming patch with regards to item stats. I mean, whatever happened to things like this and this:razz:
 

Rule zum Rabensang

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNW
I'd say making archers stationary when shooting is a good idea. I shoot traditional selfbows, and it's just silly to move your legs at all while shooting, and anything other than a slow-paced walking is completely pointless.
Quiver size then surely would benefit from a little +1 or even +2.
Not so sure about a chance of the bowstring snapping though. It's another randomness and I'm not the biggest fan of randomness :smile:

I also second Eirikr's notion about the 2h axes being generally able to block except for the ones that really cry "pole-axe".
Spears are okay without blocking, I still would say.

The sword issue is a bit of a delicate matter. Overall, I second this notion as well - after all, my standard armament is my axe Banwearca anyways :smile:.
But I fear that a considerable bunch of regulars might be opposed to this idea, and I can imagine some guys will even play less often if "their" weapon of choice is "taken from them". Alas, maybe I do wrong to the people I have in mind here.


 
Rule zum Rabensang said:
The sword issue is a bit of a delicate matter. Overall, I second this notion as well - after all, my standard armament is my axe Banwearca anyways :smile:.
But I fear that a considerable bunch of regulars might be opposed to this idea, and I can imagine some guys will even play less often if "their" weapon of choice is "taken from them". Alas, maybe I do wrong to the people I have in mind here.

A considerable bunch of players used spears and dane-axes as their weapon of choice too, unfortunately they were ultimately removed from our selection (aside from shield use). Again, I am not looking for any real nerf to sword lethality in Víkingr (although I suppose the stats do need looking at a little) but merely that they are priced out of the first few rounds as mail is. Butter knives, seaxes and the short short short swords are generally OK.

I am a little perturbed with the lack of responses. Are people really satisfied with the status quo? Surely there must be some vocal supporters and opponents?
 

Rule zum Rabensang

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNW
Leifr Eiríksson said:
Again, I am not looking for any real nerf to sword lethality in Víkingr (although I suppose the stats do need looking at a little) but merely that they are priced out of the first few rounds as mail is.
I got that. But having to "wait" for their swords might be a problem for some players, that's all I'm saying. And I suppose the sword-folk is even bigger than the dane-axe-tribe ever was.
However, even a slight increase in the cost of swords might suffice.
 
I understand. I think this might play a little into the three rounds map over business though. If maps weren't over in such a brutally short period, it shouldn't be quite a problem for people to have to earn the sword.
 

hrotha

Grandmaster Knight
WBNWWF&SVC
FimbulTýr said:
But if only the "winners" are able to buy swords, wouldn't that make it even more unbalanced?
Perhaps, but maybe it could be combined with a cut to the survivor bonus and a dramatic increase to the damage bonus?
 

FimbulTýr

Sergeant Knight
In my opinion it's easier to win with a good weapon than with good armour. But that's just my personal point of view.
 

Rule zum Rabensang

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNW
And you're probably right about that. Still, both are advantages for the ones earning money - or a loser bonus :smile:.
I could live with less swords, but as I said above, I guess only a minority thinks alike.
 

Bedric

Recruit
Leifr Eiríksson said:
I am a little perturbed with the lack of responses. Are people really satisfied with the status quo? Surely there must be some vocal supporters and opponents?

Well seeing as you ask, here's my view.

Spears unable to block.
I think the issue here is quite simply that the pro-sword lobby is much bigger than the pro-spear lobby and made much more noise on the forum back when this was first mooted.  Frankly the argument boiled down to the fact that the average sword fan seemed to believe that they were practically entitled to a kill, and a quick kill, if they got into a one on one with a spearman.  I recall people mentioning that fighting spearmen was simply boring*.

I disagree with this but accept that "gameplay" is indeed a very important consideration.  I haven't lost any sleep over the spear nerf but a couple of things really do stand out as being outrageously disadvantageous for spearmen.

a) Why can spears only thrust in one spot?  If possible, let spears have a high or low stab at the very least.  This will mean swordsmen will have to actually open their eyes to block a spear thrust.

b) Why oh why do I have to lower my shield to switch to seax?  I get that blocking was removed because fighting spearmen was taking too long and as stated I accept that, but when I want to switch to seax I have to give away a free hit too!

Turning the argument on its head, I actually think that blocking with swords is overdone and should also be nerfed!  In the game, our 3lite swordsman can hold off any number of spears, even seemingly simultaneous thrusts, just by holding the downblock button in his sleep.  This same swordsman can fight for ages against another swordsman who has a shield.  The man with the shield should have a massive advantage.  I don't know if this is because the level of skill displayed by the majority of Vikingr players is just so high or what skill level the gameplay should be designed around.  Regardless, swords of this period were not designed for fencing and the man with the shield should be able to win pretty easily.

* Note - fighting endless waves of people (wearing nothing but a shirt) with swords, all making a bee-line for me because I'm using a spear and hence a cheap kill, is pretty boring for me too but that's another matter.

Archery
I would vote against bowstrings breaking.  I don't believe it would have been that commonplace amongst people who knew how to look after their gear and would just end up being intensely frustrating.

I mentioned a while ago my suggestion would be to simply limit the time the bow can be held drawn, say about three seconds or something.

I used to think making archers remain stationary whilst shooting would be a good idea too but then some youtube videos were presented showing someone doing acrobatics whilst shooting which has got me thinking.  For my own part, I could never shoot my bow with any accuracy whilst moving but I am not particularly skilled at it, and my bow is much longer than the recurve (or whatever) type shown in the videos.  Also, I don't know how powerful the acrobat's bow was.  I haven't made my mind up on this yet.

There was also a suggestion a while back about giving people the ability to block with a bow (right after we've removed that ability from spears and dane axes).  No, just no.  For close work, you're better off taking your bow and placing it on the ground.  With any luck you can come back and collect it later.

Edited for grammar/spelling - hope I got them all.
 

Hengwulf

Sergeant Knight
I keep with my previous opinion that swords shouldn't become much more expensive. A swordfighter has some disadvantages like small shield, no throwing weapons etc. This might not be enough to balance the game but I would rather have this than people being unable to purchase their weapon of choice. This might be countered  by Eirikrs suggestion to give a match more rounds, so people have to really earn it. In the 3 round game however, I would support the price as is.

Mind you all that not only the weapon of choice is important for the joy one would find in this mod, but it is also a great weapon for new players as the other weapons are far less forgiving. I know I myself with my meager skills really had to put myself to axe fighting as I was happy enough to finally get some kills with a sword.

If we are feeling that we see to much swords around, I would rather see some improvements on other weapons to make them more useful. I think spears and daneaxes should be able to block. The animation for it might look silly, but it is better for gameplay and as Rapier said: it is a means to simulate other things you can do with those weapons.

On bows, I fully agree an archer should stop to shoot. I never play as an archer, so other people might know better how to balance this further. I however would hate a snapping string.

Also, Goidil need hats.
 
Hengwulf said:
Also, Goidil need hats.

Don't forget appropriate footwear, don't forget footwear!
Could we get like cloth footwraps, or something? I'd be much more happy with that than the leprechaun shoes.
 
Good step to make life difficult for swodsman is to make shields  less brakeable againts swords I mean even a very good blocker must once have enough  :twisted:  :mrgreen:
But for me it's ok, spear and dane axe  with blocking it's ok.I just hate  these guys with a seax and with a  large shield :grin:
 

hrotha

Grandmaster Knight
WBNWWF&SVC
If something could be done to make manual blocking much more difficult with all weapons (requiring the player to time their blocks accurately) that would be great, but I'm afraid Warband's engine won't be up for it.

I would also support introducing crappier, cheaper swords (not necessarily shorter) and increasing the price of the good ones.
 

RandomUsername

Master Knight
hrotha said:
I would also support introducing crappier, cheaper swords (not necessarily shorter) and increasing the price of the good ones.

This. Failing that, I vote for more langseax equilevants/variants.
 
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