Suggestions

[FimbulTýr]

If something could be done to make manual blocking much more difficult with all weapons (requiring the player to time their blocks accurately) that would be great, but I'm afraid Warband's engine won't be up for it.

Maybe that's a bit radical, but one could try to remove the blocking ability for all weapons...
Fighting without shield would be much more agressive then because one could only deflect blows by chambering. This would buff axes in shieldcombat because they destroy the shield of the enemy faster and it would nerf swords in shieldcombat, but make them stronger shieldless fighting, because they're longer and faster.

 

[Dansk viking]

I mentioned a while ago my suggestion would be to simply limit the time the bow can be held drawn, say about three seconds or something.

This was what baffled me mostly when I tried out archery the other day, one can virtually stroll around with a drawn bow and let the arrow fly at one's leisure, I agree with Bedric that three seconds would be appropriate. I am positive towards forcing the archer to remain stationary when the bow is drawn. I'm not sure about the bowstring-snap though.



I agree with Hróða that cheaper swords could take the place of the current ones; they might be heavier, more crude, and even with a chance of breaking when stressed. The current swords would then be more expensive (not available as a first weapon). Maybe even more price-classes could be introduced, for example the single-edged and the Hersir sword would be cheaper than the Húskarl, and the Gaddhjalt etc.



I'm actually opposed to reintroducing (ordinary) blocking for spears and long axes. For the sake of consistency I'd even remove it from the short spear and the shorter two-handed axes. In stead I'd stress the importance of chambering; I'd like to see chambering available in all directions for the spears (without following attack on the right/left chambers perhaps), simulating deflection rather than block. The Dane-axes should be a support weapon just like the spears - I'd actually like the pole-arm functions given to them (like the hewing spear, being able to stand behind your ally and hit the enemy in front rather than your ally with an overhead attack).



On another note, I've actually discussed with Balduin the possibility of a complete remake of the blocking in Víkingr, removing the normal block and focusing on chambering. This will most likely just stay as a thought, but I think most of us would agree that the current representation of blocking/deflecting is full of flaws.

Hah, Balduin. You were faster than me.

 

[hrotha]

The no blocking idea is certainly interesting and I'd like to see it implemented in some way, but I'm afraid it might be too radical for the more casual players. It would also make axes extremely powerful due to their shield-breaking capabilities, so that would require some tweaking (then again, I'm not sure how easy it is to break a shield with a simple one-handed axe!).

The thing with chambering is that it's pretty hard to pull off except for expert players with a decent ping. Perhaps if the "hotspot" for chambering could be tweaked... but this is probably sci-fi.

The two attack directions for spears would also be good. It's very counterintuitive when someone does an overarm stab and you have to block it down. My only concern is that spears are pretty deadly as they are.

 

[rapier17]

Call me a weirdo but... I like it! No seriously, I do! Remove all blocking from weapons - it would make shields absolutely vital to everyone and those who are fantastic at timing chambers will be able to show off their skill & prowess (looking at you Moecker), whilst footwork will take a massive step forward in terms of dominance (as it does in reality). Such a simple change that could solve a lot of problems. I can see the complaints already but it would level out the playing field immensely - no longer would those with weapons that can block be able to hold off multiple spearmen by blocking down - now they'd have to chamber every single strike. Going solo would be suicide. Goodness me I like it.

Dragomir: Don't worry about that post of mine, I was rather impassioned for no reason whatsoever and was basically just throwing my toys out of the pram. I can summarise that whole post of mine in one short sentence; Waaaah! Want block on spears. Waaaah! That aside, my whole post (and indeed whenever I post about weapons & using them*) is all based on memory. I don't have my spear anymore (nor do I have the majority of my kit - shoes, trews & weapons (sword, ax & seax)) and because I'm remembering when I've used spears my mind distorts the memories. Mind you, I was not a bad spearman when I think about it, being left-handed helped, as well as being bloody fast, but I did go down a lot as a spearman, although significantly less towards the end of my Dark Ages re-enactment 'career'.

As for the people in the society knowing how to use spears? In Regia Anglorum every member starts on the spear & has to attend 6 society training days/weekends or events (as a combatant) to be allowed to even think about taking their spear test. This was normally done at events - the person being tested would attend a practice (normally held in the morning) & have a pennant or something attached to their spearhead to mark them out as someone undergoing their test. They must then complete the practice & go on to take part in the 'battle'. After the battle, straight away after the fighting had ended & we'd finished doing our 'Circle of Honour/Circle of Treachery' post-battle mini-event things, the person being tested would then have to complete a solo test against one of the Master At Arms fellows - when they'd done that they could start to learn to use other weapons.
In short, the people in Regia Anglorum knew how to use spears & how to face them.

*Sadly I haven't picked up a weapon & used it for about a year now. Joys of getting old & having no time for anything.

 

[Jock]

I, for one, am against the idea of making weapons non-blockable. Mostly due to my ping being around 80-90 and thus making chambering more difficult for me.

I suggest an increase in weapon speeds to make blocking more difficult and combat more challenging instead.

 

[sotijalo]

I, for one, am against the idea of making weapons non-blockable. Mostly due to my ping being around 80-90 and thus making chambering more difficult for me.

I suggest an increase in weapon speeds to make blocking more difficult and combat more challenging instead.

Ya I think Roo is quite right that this change would be too extreme for casual players and create even greater gap between people with good connection and people with problems in their countries connection-policies.

I also would like to see increased weapon speed like Roo suggested or decreasing the speed in manual blocking. I think that blocking with shield should be vastly superior compared to manual blocking with weapon. I also would like to see some change to the usual playstyle as all 1v1 usually come to simple block-hit-block-hit-blokc-hit if the fighters are even close to their skill level. I believe that hit-spamming was quite common irl if one would have the upper hand. I'm not saying that every battle should be only one-sided spamming but with minor changes towards pro-smapping could bring more variety to gameplay.

And even though it seems that I start all my sentences with "I" it doesn't mean that I'm narcistic just that I'm too lazy for any proper variety in  text atm.

 

[Leifr Eiríksson]

Bloody hell! That is more like it, lots of replies makes for a fine discussion (most of the time...).

Archery
I would vote against bowstrings breaking.  I don't believe it would have been that commonplace amongst people who knew how to look after their gear and would just end up being intensely frustrating.

I mentioned a while ago my suggestion would be to simply limit the time the bow can be held drawn, say about three seconds or something.

I used to think making archers remain stationary whilst shooting would be a good idea too but then some youtube videos were presented showing someone doing acrobatics whilst shooting which has got me thinking.  For my own part, I could never shoot my bow with any accuracy whilst moving but I am not particularly skilled at it, and my bow is much longer than the recurve (or whatever) type shown in the videos.  Also, I don't know how powerful the acrobat's bow was.  I haven't made my mind up on this yet.

Arr, it was just an idea. The Deluge mod features bow-strings that snap (although I think it only occurs in wet weather) on a very rare basis, infact I think in all of my hours played it has only occurred once for my character. I'm actually more for the random effect in games, anything to prevent a player from continually exploiting a weapon or characteristic. After all, real life isn't quite so predictable either. However I'm not particularly fussed either way on this one, it was merely a suggestion.

I am however adamant that we see archery root the player to the spot on LEFT_CLICK. I'm not sure how relevant a gymnast would be regarding early medieval warfare. Would you really expect that much out of the rickety man on the field? It would seem to me that such men would be reticent to largely get into a scrap (as most men would) if it meant being maimed or death. Battlefield acrobatics would be the last act on his mind to perform; fight or flight would seem more likely.

I keep with my previous opinion that swords shouldn't become much more expensive. A swordfighter has some disadvantages like small shield, no throwing weapons etc. This might not be enough to balance the game but I would rather have this than people being unable to purchase their weapon of choice. This might be countered  by Eirikrs suggestion to give a match more rounds, so people have to really earn it. In the 3 round game however, I would support the price as is.

Mind you all that not only the weapon of choice is important for the joy one would find in this mod, but it is also a great weapon for new players as the other weapons are far less forgiving. I know I myself with my meager skills really had to put myself to axe fighting as I was happy enough to finally get some kills with a sword.

If we are feeling that we see to much swords around, I would rather see some improvements on other weapons to make them more useful. I think spears and daneaxes should be able to block. The animation for it might look silly, but it is better for gameplay and as Rapier said: it is a means to simulate other things you can do with those weapons.

On bows, I fully agree an archer should stop to shoot. I never play as an archer, so other people might know better how to balance this further. I however would hate a snapping string.

Also, Goidil need hats.

I am unable to purchase the armour of my choice within two rounds, if at all, in a Víkingr map. Why should players be granted the great boon of owning the best (and it is undeniable) weapons of choice in the first round? With the current looting bugs present a sword-user does not need to purchase anything other than his (top-tier) sword and a free shield, throwing weapons are always spawned on death of the user (even if discarded) and shields are not a rare commodity on the field. It's intolerable that a new player to Víkingr can simply use a sword from the get-go rather than learning how to use the axes and spears first - traditional weapons of the masses and plebs. Why don't we just gift them all a coat of maille and a helmet too? I mean, they do provide a more forgiving environment right? 

Good to know you're in agreement regarding the archery though, mostly.

Goidil need a lot of things. 

I mentioned a while ago my suggestion would be to simply limit the time the bow can be held drawn, say about three seconds or something.

This was what baffled me mostly when I tried out archery the other day, one can virtually stroll around with a drawn bow and let the arrow fly at one's leisure, I agree with Bedric that three seconds would be appropriate. I am positive towards forcing the archer to remain stationary when the bow is drawn. I'm not sure about the bowstring-snap though.



I agree with Hróða that cheaper swords could take the place of the current ones; they might be heavier, more crude, and even with a chance of breaking when stressed. The current swords would then be more expensive (not available as a first weapon). Maybe even more price-classes could be introduced, for example the single-edged and the Hersir sword would be cheaper than the Húskarl, and the Gaddhjalt etc.



I'm actually opposed to reintroducing (ordinary) blocking for spears and long axes. For the sake of consistency I'd even remove it from the short spear and the shorter two-handed axes. In stead I'd stress the importance of chambering; I'd like to see chambering available in all directions for the spears (without following attack on the right/left chambers perhaps), simulating deflection rather than block. The Dane-axes should be a support weapon just like the spears - I'd actually like the pole-arm functions given to them (like the hewing spear, being able to stand behind your ally and hit the enemy in front rather than your ally with an overhead attack).



On another note, I've actually discussed with Balduin the possibility of a complete remake of the blocking in Víkingr, removing the normal block and focusing on chambering. This will most likely just stay as a thought, but I think most of us would agree that the current representation of blocking/deflecting is full of flaws.

Good man. I am in agreement with each point spare the third and fourth (and thus Balduin's). Whilst I am comfortable with chambering attacks, I assure you that it is a lost art on the many. Removing block on everything is a death sentence for... pretty much everyone. There's hardcore Víkingr and then there's hardcore Víkingr. You Danish nutter... 

It's critical that Moe and BarBar listen and potentially trial out these suggestions where possible.

 

[Jock]

Goidil need a lot of things. 

Aye!

 

[Æthelwulf]

Some of the ole pre-patch test releases wouldn't go amiss, let the patch loose over a weekend with some radical changes and see how they pan out. We got two handed swords removed after about a week if I recall. What you were you guys thinking?

 

[Leifr Eiríksson]

coughKnyazhorsearcher...

 

[Æthelwulf]

Less said about that the better.

 

[Wernicke]

What about some of the animations from the Floris Expanded mod (although I doubt that is where they originated)? They made spear blocking look a bit more acceptable, at least.

Edit: For those unfamiliar with the mod, here are the block animations I speak of.

Spoiler

Right block,

Spoiler

Left block,

Spoiler

Downward block,

Spoiler

And finally, the overhead block.

 

[Hengwulf]

I do agree that shield blocking should be superior to weapon blocking. Even though I suck at manual blocking, I really feel like shields are more a hindrance than beneficial in a sparring fight. I am not sure if a total remove of manual blocking would be the final answer. But no reason not to test it though.

 

[Æthelwulf]

Shields not being naff is the one thing I want most from Bannerlord. It truly is.

As for the spear blocking it's most likely from Combat Animation Enhancement mod pack. I know the archery animations have been tried out but as for the others I can't say. Personally I don't really like them and actually find them a lot harder to judge than vanilla, but I shall test them out once more maybe.

 

[Ozwan]

Maybe that's a bit radical, but one could try to remove the blocking ability for all weapons...
Fighting without shield would be much more agressive then because one could only deflect blows by chambering. This would buff axes in shieldcombat because they destroy the shield of the enemy faster and it would nerf swords in shieldcombat, but make them stronger shieldless fighting, because they're longer and faster.

So your suggestion is basically to force absolutely everyone to use a shield and get instakilled once it breaks by any competent player because he'll just hold his attack? How about make changes to increase skillcap instead of gradually removing all skill-based elements of the fighting mechanics and turning this mod more and more into utterly boring slugfest of two shieldmen bashing each others shields for two minutes.

For example more ways to get around the shield, it's simply hilarious for me that any player can just hold rmb and S and there's no way for you to do anything to him until his shield breaks, which already takes ages in Vikingr.

Some form of manual blocking for shields would be great.

 

[Rule zum Rabensang]

For example more ways to get around the shield, it's simply hilarious for me that any player can just hold rmb and S and there's no way for you to do anything to him until his shield breaks, which already takes ages in Vikingr.

Sorry, but that's simply not true. You can easily hit a shield-blocking foe in his flank or even back, it's just a matter of position, footwork or surprise.

 

[Astolphus]

coughKnyazhorsearcher...

I remember those glorious days ... i was fond of him and maybe the community is ready for his return 

A part from this dream, after the event I think that ceiternach light/skermishing infantry dimension should be strengthened maybe the idea of adding sling, that I read elsewhere, is not bad and it should add a couple of new tactical possibilities

For long axes blocking ability I'd generally reintroduce it - excluding only the longest weapons- for the 2nd tier troops (swurdberend ...), reflecting the superior training required to handle them

 

[Bedric]

I am however adamant that we see archery root the player to the spot on LEFT_CLICK. I'm not sure how relevant a gymnast would be regarding early medieval warfare. Would you really expect that much out of the rickety man on the field? It would seem to me that such men would be reticent to largely get into a scrap (as most men would) if it meant being maimed or death. Battlefield acrobatics would be the last act on his mind to perform; fight or flight would seem more likely.

Don't get me wrong, I want to support this idea believe me.  In fact I did vote for archers being stationary whilst shooting in the archery thread (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,233200.75.html) a while back.

That, however, was before another thread came up where someone posted videos of people jumping around and shooting.  Perhaps the term acrobat was not the best.  I can't find the links now. 

Here is another video with more down to earth moves - you will note at the end he's backpedalling and shooting at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnv9Pr3AWSw

Now I would guess it's a pretty light bow (but I don't know this) and you can see that it's also quite small and handy.  He also states that the nocks are specially shaped.  I imagine that it would be much harder to pull this off with heavier and longer bows which are the type we are talking about.  Maybe I've talked myself back into agreeing with you.

Having said that the point remains; it's difficult to argue that something isn't possible when there are videos of people actually doing it.


Also, on the subject of holding the bow drawn for too long, I'm going to plug this medieval quote again (from here - http://www.sthubertsrangers.org/mediaeval_longbow_technique.htm) because I think it illustrates my point quite nicely.

“Holding - The hold is the pause upon completing the draw. It must be so lytle that it may be perceyued better in a man‘s mynd when it is done, than seene with a man‘s eyes when it is in doing. Saracens held for not longer than the count of three. However brief, this pause is essential for good shooting, but the longer the hold, the greater the strain for the bowman, and the greater the difficulty of taking steady aim and loosing cleanly, in addition to the disturbance of shooting rhythm. Also, the bow is placed in jeopardy by an overlong hold and loses power for the cast. This loss is greatest in the first three seconds and continues more slowly, bringing the bow closer to its breaking point. For these reasons it is important that the hold be not only brief, but of equal duration at each shot.”

We really need to limit the time the bow can be held drawn.  I promise I will shut up about this now.

 

[Ozwan]

Sorry, but that's simply not true. You can easily hit a shield-blocking foe in his flank or even back, it's just a matter of position, footwork or surprise.

No, you cant, 1v1 a guy who just installed Warband the first time can stall anyone for unreasonably long time by just backpeddling and pressing rmb.

Is this even possible to make blocking with shield requiring some lesser form of manual blocking with WSE etc.? Or are we really stuck with this invulnerability field activated by pressing a button?

 

[hrotha]

But who does that? Most people at least try to get in an attack every now and then. Playing is pretty pointless otherwise.

I think I'd only support making shields harder to block with if no weapons could block and hotspots for chambering could be increased (which is most definitely technically unfeasible). Right now good manual blockers aren't at enough of a disadvantage vs shield users.