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Dragomir

Knight
WB
I'd love to see a class specialised in the use of long dane - axe, but with armour and everything else. Just like vordr, but with a poleaxe instead of a sword. Perhaps to make it seem special they would be the only people that could block with axes.
 

Æthelwulf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNW
Bah! Berserker is stupid and so is everyone who wants it. Huscarls and the like used the dane axe, so if it's a state of mind wear a bloody tunic as the Nordmenn and run around with the thing.
 

rapier17

Baron
Dragomir said:
I'd love to see a class specialised in the use of long dane - axe, but with armour and everything else. Just like vordr, but with a poleaxe instead of a sword. Perhaps to make it seem special they would be the only people that could block with axes.
Sounds just like a c11 Englisc húscarl.

I'll say it again whilst we're on the topic; spears need their block back as a means of replacing all the funky stuff you can do with them RL that you can't do in-game.
 

Dragomir

Knight
WB
Different animations would be required for that... Besides it's not like you have good chances 1 vs. 1 as a spearman against a shieldman. I know it is possible to win such fight, I did it few times. But generally spearmen ARE vulnerable and that should be somehow displayed in the game, while back when blocking with spears was possible they didn't seem so at all. They actually could block faster than a shield (which is just preposterous, since with shield you pretty much always attack and block at the same time).
 

Ozwan

Knight
Alright, noticed some other things which didn' exactly make me happy:

- cavalry spear can be only used overarm - what the hell? Why?
- cav javelin is unsheathable - again, what the hell? How does this make any sense at all?
- rider gets bumped when charging into someone - seriously, wtf, horse already not only dies from one throwing weapon or lucky arrow, but it also takes damage for some reason when bumping, now you can't even bumpslash in here?

You guys seem to be going in a very wrong direction with this. Two handed axes are already useless, now it seems that cavalry is getting nerfed to the ground aswell. Constantly lowering the skillcap, 1v1 melee fights between somewhat competent players already take ages because all weapons are so slow, it literally can take a minute to get through the defense of average manual blocker, or until I just get bored to death and start spamming. Its like playing in slowmotion. Imho you should just raise weapon speeds all across the board by 3-4 points, so a basic sword would have a more reasonable speed of 98-100 and melee fighting would become more skill-based and less boredom again. And reverse those cav changes, they are ridiculous.
 

Jock

Count
M&BWBWF&SNW
Aye, I agree about the weapon speed increase part. Could use a bit tweaking there, does feel I'm playing in slow motion quite often.
 

Phalanx300

Banned
Partizan_Rusi said:
Maybe when devs will add Berserker class back with no armor and make it useful, 2h axes will be used and useful again.

I can see one way how Beserkers could return in a playable form: Raid mode. Currently Raid allows to spawns civilians but also priests, so making a entry for Berserkers or other kind of warriors should be possible. (Giants)
 

Dragomir

Knight
WB
Ozwan said:
Alright, noticed some other things which didn' exactly make me happy:

- cavalry spear can be only used overarm - what the hell? Why?
- cav javelin is unsheathable - again, what the hell? How does this make any sense at all?
- rider gets bumped when charging into someone - seriously, wtf, horse already not only dies from one throwing weapon or lucky arrow, but it also takes damage for some reason when bumping, now you can't even bumpslash in here?

You guys seem to be going in a very wrong direction with this. Two handed axes are already useless, now it seems that cavalry is getting nerfed to the ground aswell. Constantly lowering the skillcap, 1v1 melee fights between somewhat competent players already take ages because all weapons are so slow, it literally can take a minute to get through the defense of average manual blocker, or until I just get bored to death and start spamming. Its like playing in slowmotion. Imho you should just raise weapon speeds all across the board by 3-4 points, so a basic sword would have a more reasonable speed of 98-100 and melee fighting would become more skill-based and less boredom again. And reverse those cav changes, they are ridiculous.

Cav changes are good. I'm not that keen about only going overarm, but all the other changes make perfect sense. Cavalry is just not cavalry in 1066. Horsemen are fast skirmishers throwing spears and running away. And come on, bump - slash should never EVER be possible in the first place.
 

rapier17

Baron
Dragomir said:
But generally spearmen ARE vulnerable and that should be somehow displayed in the game, while back when blocking with spears was possible they didn't seem so at all. They actually could block faster than a shield (which is just preposterous, since with shield you pretty much always attack and block at the same time).
But a good spearman can still defeat an ax/sword wielder one-on-one. I was not the best spearman when I was a re-enactor by far but I could still hold my ground one-on-one against more experienced & better ax/sword wielders. There's a misconception that the spear is a vulnerable weapon out of a formation - this is not true. Spearmen have great advantages over sword/ax wielders - range, precision & speed, as well as the capability to constantly threaten a target with the spear head - you can get a killing shot through 9 square inch gap (3"x3") - I did it on my very first re-enactment training fight.

There are so many things you can do with a spear to defeat an opponent - jab the tip at their eyes, if they raise their shield to protect their face/head or try and swipe at the spear with their weapon, pull the spear back, drop the point, ram it into their leg. If their shield is low and they raise their arm to draw back their weapon, bury the head in their biceps or in their neck/face. They get close to you you move your grip closer to the head, lifting the haft behind you and ram the head over the rim of their shield. You can use it as a rudimentary quarter-stave in certain conditions, you can feint & lure opponents into exposing themselves whilst you've still got 3'-4' between you. I used to take a 2H spear without a shield at re-enactment and emerged victorious. I feel spear is currently crippled because whilst the ability to parry/block makes up for the short-comings on the other weapons, it makes the spear too vulnerable a weapon to use.

I don't see why the spear should be crippled so people can jerk off over how epic they are with their swords against spearmen - the less skilled spearmen will still die against a 1H weapon but the skilled spearmen, like those in reality, will be able to hold their own & fight back. Or is this mod solely based around how epic the 1H weapons are & the undersung King of the battlefield to be relegated to a "Yeah, you can take a spear but, you know, once your shield is gone you're buggered."

(Sorry if that's a bit impassioned but I do think removing blocking from spears was a step utterly in the wrong direction. I used to specialise in 2H spear and could hold my own well enough but would still lose to those better than me)
 
Dragomir said:
Cav changes are good. I'm not that keen about only going overarm, but all the other changes make perfect sense. Cavalry is just not cavalry in 1066. Horsemen are fast skirmishers throwing spears and running away. And come on, bump - slash should never EVER be possible in the first place.
Cavalry revamp is worst ever was there. I proposed long ago to make horses die in one hit\shot\throw, but keep the way cavalry actually doing damage to enemy. Like spear breaking on first hit(not even kill) was not enough for "balance"....and now cavalry is a bogey scarecrow - lets hug his horse to drop him down. Its surely great balance.
Also there was not a single evidence that Rus cavalry throwed their only long spears away.
 
You mentioned a few days ago that you do not really play Víkingr any more, Partizan_Rusi. How then, do tell, are you able to pass judgement so quickly? I'm not in total agreement with some of the cavalry changes but I genuinely do believe (and do witness) that cavalry players either excel on the field or fail, it's entirely down to player ability. There are a select few players whom destroy anything that stands on two feet if they're on horse back.

 

Æthelwulf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNW
I must admit I would rather see the chance of falling from a horse not be from bumping but from taking a hit (including a shield block) or your horse itself taking damage. Plus I'm just damn awful at using that overhead but I love that more people now use the horse as a ninja slasher/thrower role.
 

Dragomir

Knight
WB
I know how the spear works Rapier, I use it in reenactment as well :razz: Though my experiences with it are polar different. After 3 months of training in 1 on 1 combat I had 50% chances against a spearman who trained 12 years. Maybe you are born with a stick in your hand, maybe your opponents didn't know how to fight a spear (actually many reenactors don't, and they crap their pants when they see a polearm, I often hold of 3 - 4 guys at once with my Dane axe just because they lack balls to charge me).

Spears ARE vulnerable and that's a fact no matter how much you deny it. If your opponents stand in front of you and try fencing - yeah, they die straight away. But people who know how to fight a spear won't stand. They'll just run towards you not giving you ANY chance to "jab the tip at their eyes, if they raise their shield to protect their face/head or try and swipe at the spear with their weapon, pull the spear back, drop the point, ram it into their leg. If their shield is low and they raise their arm to draw back their weapon, bury the head in their biceps or in their neck/face. They get close to you you move your grip closer to the head, lifting the haft behind you and ram the head over the rim of their shield. You can use it as a rudimentary quarter-stave in certain conditions, you can feint & lure opponents into exposing themselves whilst you've still got 3'-4' between you." - before a spearman does even half of these things I'm right on his face. All it takes is deflect the spear and go past the spearhead, being fast enough to not let him draw it back. You just can't run backwards as fast as people run forwards and that's the main disadvantage of the spear. Once they're past the spearhead only option left is to hold it vertically to block and grab a seax. Of course if your spear is of decent length, you can do a lot more with short ones but then you can in Vikingr as well.

Perhaps we need to hook up on some festival, I'll take a sword and shield, you'd take your spear and we could see what it's all about :razz: Whether your opponents were not experienced against polearms, or you're just some kind of spear savant.


Æthelwulf said:
I must admit I would rather see the chance of falling from a horse not be from bumping but from taking a hit (including a shield block) or your horse itself taking damage. Plus I'm just damn awful at using that overhead but I love that more people now use the horse as a ninja slasher/thrower role.

I have another proposition. Horse bump could cause it to stand up (like when you press Ctrl+J) and then falling from it would look like it makes sense - horse out of fear and pain throws you down from it's back. Brilliant, isn't it?
 

Dansk viking

Master Knight
NWWBVC
Æthelwulf said:
I must admit I would rather see the chance of falling from a horse not be from bumping but from taking a hit (including a shield block) or your horse itself taking damage. Plus I'm just damn awful at using that overhead but I love that more people now use the horse as a ninja slasher/thrower role.

But that's already in, Æthelwulf - there's a chance you'll be knocked off your horse if you're hit. The only thing I really think needs changing about cavalry is the angle of the overhead stab as well as its damage (increased, please) especially (but not exclusively) when you are not attacking from a fast-moving horse; right now it takes up to eight, nine, even ten strikes, perhaps, to kill a man with the overhead stab from a stationary horse.

Ozwan, it sounds to me as if you would enjoy a thing called "Native" more than Víkingr.
 

Dragomir

Knight
WB
Oh! One more thing! And it HAS to be changed. Cavalry spears should DEVASTATE shields. Period. For the least durable shields they should one - hit them. Seriously, a spear thrown at high speed from horseback could break through shield and even it's owner. That might be a bit of an overkill in Vikingr, but right now they barely damage shields at all. I run around with a small shield and when I catch 9 feet of freaking sturdy wood on it it's not even half of it's durability. I think that would illustrate how the character thinks "Hmmm, that thing is useless now" and throws it away. It makes more sense than blocking with a giant stick in it. Seriously, it's ridiculous, and changing it would make cav even more useful as "weakening" support troops.
 

Dansk viking

Master Knight
NWWBVC
I fully agree, Dragomir. I'd even go so far as to saying that the "Viking Throwing Spear" and other such long throwing weapons should do the same.
 

Dansk viking

Master Knight
NWWBVC
Yes, I actually asked Möcker about that, and seems the reason was that otherwise one would be unable to bring a spear and a javelin/throwing spear for example.
 
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