State of Melee Part Two

[dan1993uk]

Yes, the 51st were not who I was referring to, to be honest and yes I do agree with what you said about there regimental ethics, however, I stand by my guns on the realism front which does not actually relate to them! Historical names and all...

And yes, I think it is pretty damn obvious that this is my opinion - I would not sell it any other way!

Well maybe if your opinion was valid enough you could of joined us while we spent hour after hour on commander battle and cycling the cannon test map with 5 kill limit causing a infinite loop which made any attempt to test any game mechanic impossible.

Was not really much of a beta, more like make the creation of the trailer and a few minor changes.

 

[lolSid]

Yes, the 51st were not who I was referring to, to be honest and yes I do agree with what you said about there regimental ethics, however, I stand by my guns on the realism front which does not actually relate to them! Historical names and all...

And yes, I think it is pretty damn obvious that this is my opinion - I would not sell it any other way!

Well maybe if your opinion was valid enough you could of joined us while we spent hour after hour on commander battle and cycling the cannon test map with 5 kill limit causing a infinite loop which made any attempt to test any game mechanic impossible.

Was not really much of a beta, more like make the creation of the trailer and a few minor changes.

I am sure alot of the beta testers green lighted the melee and this is why so many people ran to forums on release, sorry Daniel but this is my view on it which is very opinionated but I stick to my guns on this one as I have always done.

The ones who red-lighted the melee desserve a clap on the back to be honest, shows they werent appeasing the developers.

 

[Evanovic]

This makes you improve your defensive skill rather than in MM where you really only focused on your offensive skill. If they just touch-up a little bit on the animations/speed/hitboxes then I think this is easily better than MM melee.

It's pretty silly to make melee a defense-focused thing when there are guns involved in the general gameplay. It just promotes camping and empowers the large and firing-focused regiments even more. Proper competitive and meaningful melee often comes when a regiment that is losing in the shooting decides to bank all it's money on getting into melee, but if the focus of melee is being defensive you're just punishing them ever more for being punished.

I also agree with Varangian. Due to this defense-focused gameplay it generally comes to whoever gets bored or tries something complex first loses in both duel and groupfighting, when you get 2 pretty equally matched opponents. MM had room for both defensive players and offensive ones, and you could see that in it's more equal player distribution across Groupfighting AND Duel servers. Nowadays duel is just empty. In MM the defensive players were some of the most skilled and insightful ones. Being defensive wasn't the staple tactic of a player in order to get kills, as it has been made to be for NW. In MM, for the average player, being defensive was simply a way to ensure longer survival; it was only the good ones who could get kills in such a manner.

How do the melee mechanics contribute to the worse attacking gameplay:

- Loss of utility in chambering, the main thing that gives his/her attack continuity.
- Increase of stubs and inconsistent hit-damage: creates more uncertainty for an attacker who relies on eliminating enemies fast and efficiently.
- Loss of turning speed: when attacking you're likely going to come up against more opponents than you have allies and therefore you need agility to deal with them should they encircle you.

 

[Hekko]

Yes, chambering is much more blockable in NW and I agree that the speeds should be changed but chambering has turned into more of a surprise element than anything else. For instance, you don't chamber as your primary method of attack, you duel him using an alternative method consistently like feinting or just attacking immediately after a block. They notice the pattern and expect you to keep doing it, that's when you start to chamber, when they least expect it which makes the lower speeds not as big of a disadvantage. This works most of the time but it doesn't really matter, chambering wasn't ever really effective to begin with, it's one of the easiest things to counter (holding).

No one of the top players used chambers as their primary attack method, as you said those who did were usually the ones being killed on the first or second held stab. And you are right, a chamber is a suprise move, because it changes the flow of melee by forcing a different approach to dealing with the incoming attack i.e. rechamber. If it's blockable as it is now it does not break the pacing at all, it just means that the person will have to do the same thing he would have done anyway to stay alive. And the presence and threat of chambering and the meta-game around that was what made MM melee very deep.

MM in 1v1s was mostly a spamfest, not a lot of skill involved. You only had to really worry about the down attack considering the up attack wasn't lethal. In NW, however, the down and up attacks are both lethal. This makes you improve your defensive skill rather than in MM where you really only focused on your offensive skill. If they just touch-up a little bit on the animations/speed/hitboxes then I think this is easily better than MM melee.

Not worrying about the up attack against people like Sid or Vorlen was a sure way to get killed in MM. And spamming to be honest almost never carried the day, less than it does now due to the low turnspeed changing attack priority unpredictably due to positioning and strafing. And if you only focused on your offensive skill in MM you generally were the guy getting killed on the first held stab. And anyway a too heavy defensive focus is bad both for new players and veterans. I am fairly certain that I somewhere on the beta forum said that once people get used to blocking the upstab 1v1 melee will grow stagnant into a hit-block exchange because the heavy risk involved in trying something. And dueling Melton at the moment is exactly that, a hit block exchange where one is trying to pull off quick overheads at times hoping to get the close range unblockable overhead doing 15%-20% damage.

The problem though, ultimately isn't that it's too offensive by default or too defensive by default, it's the fact that the risk-reward ratio has been completly botched. Chambering carries more risk at the moment, with alot less chanse of success, to the point where chambering upstabs is self-defeating behaviour, and downstab chambers are of questionable usefulness as well. Same for implied chambers, and for held stabs as well to a degree.

 

[Rydog]

you don't chamber as your primary method of attack

I think that the current melee system is satisfactory, but would gladly accept any changes to the system, or reverting to different types of attack. I don't really have a strong opinion, but I think this discussion spiralled out of control very fast and back to the age old discussion of bashing beta testers and telling people your opinion is more valid because you're good. Once you have bought this game, your opinion is as valid as the worst people on the game, even if you're topping scoreboards, just because you're better at it doesn't give you more of a right to say what should be changed. But as I said, I support any positive changes made, even if they are big ones, just because I prefer forever-updating and improving game mechanics.

I think the #1 priority should be bringing back tap-blocking though, dayum I miss that so badly 

 

[DarthJezus]

It's pretty silly to make melee a defense-focused thing when there are guns involved in the general gameplay. It just promotes camping and empowers the large and firing-focused regiments even more. Proper competitive and meaningful melee often comes when a regiment that is losing in the shooting decides to bank all it's money on getting into melee, but if the focus of melee is being defensive you're just punishing them ever more for being punished.

Melee isn't only defensively focused, offense is just as important as defense. Defense is just more important in NW rather than MM due to having more than one lethal attack, that doesn't mean melee all of a sudden has become defense-focused.

Due to this defense-focused gameplay it generally comes to whoever gets bored or tries something complex first loses in both duel and groupfighting, when you get 2 pretty equally matched opponents.

The exact same thing happened in MM, more actually. It was just continuous down-stabbing at each other until one just gave up.

- Loss of utility in chambering, the main thing that gives his/her attack continuity.
- Increase of stubs and inconsistent hit-damage: creates more uncertainty for an attacker who relies on eliminating enemies fast and efficiently.
- Loss of turning speed: when attacking you're likely going to come up against more opponents than you have allies and therefore you need agility to deal with them should they encircle you.

I agree with all of this and they are issues that need to be fixed, especially the hit-damage.

[quote author=Hekko]If it's blockable as it is now it does not break the pacing at all, it just means that the person will have to do the same thing he would have done anyway to stay alive. And the presence and threat of chambering and the meta-game around that was what made MM melee very deep.
[/quote]That's where holding comes in. Unless someone is really disciplined when it comes to holding, holding tends to break the pace.

Not worrying about the up attack against people like Sid or Vorlen was a sure way to get killed in MM. And spamming to be honest almost never carried the day, less than it does now due to the low turnspeed changing attack priority unpredictably due to positioning and strafing. And if you only focused on your offensive skill in MM you generally were the guy getting killed on the first held stab. And anyway a too heavy defensive focus is bad both for new players and veterans. I am fairly certain that I somewhere on the beta forum said that once people get used to blocking the upstab 1v1 melee will grow stagnant into a hit-block exchange because the heavy risk involved in trying something. And dueling Melton at the moment is exactly that, a hit block exchange where one is trying to pull off quick overheads at times hoping to get the close range unblockable overhead doing 15%-20% damage.

I didn't mean that you just forget about the up attack entirely, my point was it wasn't as big of a deal as it is in NW. Same deal with the whole focusing on offensive skill in MM. Again, the way to counter the hit block exchange thing is to just hold your attack and it disrupts the flow, works almost every time and if they're still able to counter, then it will be a back and forth duel the rest of the time but it would also be in MM.

 

[Vissy]

It's pretty silly to make melee a defense-focused thing when there are guns involved in the general gameplay. It just promotes camping and empowers the large and firing-focused regiments even more. Proper competitive and meaningful melee often comes when a regiment that is losing in the shooting decides to bank all it's money on getting into melee, but if the focus of melee is being defensive you're just punishing them ever more for being punished.

Melee isn't only defensively focused, offense is just as important as defense. Defense is just more important in NW rather than MM due to having more than one lethal attack, that doesn't mean melee all of a sudden has become defense-focused.

It's not really defensive/offensive in NW, it's rather that what Hekko said: it's stale, pale, and quite really boring. When you have two attacks that do the same things, the other just a trifle better, is not very great. Plus the matter of being able to instantly spam off your opponent after being stabbed by a bayonet - wtf?

Due to this defense-focused gameplay it generally comes to whoever gets bored or tries something complex first loses in both duel and groupfighting, when you get 2 pretty equally matched opponents.

The exact same thing happened in MM, more actually. It was just continuous down-stabbing at each other until one just gave up.

Actually, no. There was a lot more variation. Let me explain it to you: the animations worked back then, you did not have lightning-fast overheads from point-blank range nor did you have downstab spam. My playing style, for example, involved nearly as much uppercuts as it did involve stabs. No offense man, really, but I've yet to find an argument from a top melee player back from MM who says that NW melee is better than MM. What does that really tell us? Now, I do respect your opinion, but I doubt you had the privilege to see the said top players dating back from MM play, or play yourself on that level. I don't want to bash your opinion because of that, though. Just telling you that you might not be completely credible to define us the melee in MM since you did not experience it to its extent. And sorry for this sounding douchey.

- Loss of utility in chambering, the main thing that gives his/her attack continuity.
- Increase of stubs and inconsistent hit-damage: creates more uncertainty for an attacker who relies on eliminating enemies fast and efficiently.
- Loss of turning speed: when attacking you're likely going to come up against more opponents than you have allies and therefore you need agility to deal with them should they encircle you.

I agree with all of this and they are issues that need to be fixed, especially the hit-damage.

Indeed. About turning speed, often if you try to feint your opponent can just sidestep out of range, and due to the loss of turning speed, kill you without fear for being stabbed.

[quote author=Hekko]If it's blockable as it is now it does not break the pacing at all, it just means that the person will have to do the same thing he would have done anyway to stay alive. And the presence and threat of chambering and the meta-game around that was what made MM melee very deep.

That's where holding comes in. Unless someone is really disciplined when it comes to holding, holding tends to break the pace.

Holding doesn't break the pace, trust me. Holding has always been the natural counter to chambering, not disturbing your opponents with the use of "dolphining" or similar tactics that people came up with in NW. But when you take away the element of chambering(the risk/reward ratio of it), holding loses its purpose.

Not worrying about the up attack against people like Sid or Vorlen was a sure way to get killed in MM. And spamming to be honest almost never carried the day, less than it does now due to the low turnspeed changing attack priority unpredictably due to positioning and strafing. And if you only focused on your offensive skill in MM you generally were the guy getting killed on the first held stab. And anyway a too heavy defensive focus is bad both for new players and veterans. I am fairly certain that I somewhere on the beta forum said that once people get used to blocking the upstab 1v1 melee will grow stagnant into a hit-block exchange because the heavy risk involved in trying something. And dueling Melton at the moment is exactly that, a hit block exchange where one is trying to pull off quick overheads at times hoping to get the close range unblockable overhead doing 15%-20% damage.

I didn't mean that you just forget about the up attack entirely, my point was it wasn't as big of a deal as it is in NW. Same deal with the whole focusing on offensive skill in MM. Again, the way to counter the hit block exchange thing is to just hold your attack and it disrupts the flow, works almost every time and if they're still able to counter, then it will be a back and forth duel the rest of the time but it would also be in MM.

It's not entirely the same, and more besides, you're suggesting ways to fix a game with some features already partially broken. I still top the scoreboards while playing, and I get kills by staying back and killing those who come too far to the open with their attacks. When I enter a duel, though, feintspam/lightningoverheadspam is the major cause of death rates for me. We can take advice, yeah, but we still know how melee exchanges go. And our opinion is that melee exchanges are somewhat flawed and buggy in NW. Take Hekko for example - he was one of the top players in MM, and he was a very defensive player utilizing chambering and such. His rather unique style has been rendered useless by NW.
[/quote]

 

[matmannen]

So from reading the last few posts i guess we can sum it all up too these things which, if they would change would seem to improve the melee...

1. Greater attack cool down
2. Weaken overhead attack (make down stab primary attack)
3. Less random damage values
...

Did I miss anything?

Also I didn't write turn speed 'cause I am writing my opinion and, well, some of you may want to be able to take down a group of six or seven players through spinning. But I believe that's where team work comes in.

So basically if you are alone and you meet a group of six or seven people then your ****ed...like you should be...     

 

[Vissy]

You're overexaggerating. Spinning often just resulted in you getting killed instead of killing. Spinning worked against the people who didn't bother to block at all - the newbies, in other words. Actually, in NW, just by going in circles and getting the 6-7 players grouped tightly together(much easier due to lower turning speed) I've managed to kill off a few big groups of people on my own. On groupfighting servers. So no, spinning really has no effect at all.

 

[Evanovic]

Also I didn't write turn speed 'cause I am writing my opinion and, well, some of you may want to be able to take down a group of six or seven players through spinning. But I believe that's where team work comes in.

So basically if you are alone and you meet a group of six or seven people then your ****ed...like you should be...   

Noone's asking for spinning but they are asking for increased turning speed. Mindless spinning is just a useless side-effect of actually having the agility to take on a group of players. Spinning like a ballerina gets you killed against good players, it always has and always will, but having a decent turning speed allows you to utilise the other skills much better. You actually have to be able to turn and face your opponent if you want to be able to use: chambering, feinting, kicking, blocking, dodging, held stabs etc etc. Turning is not really a skill in this sort of sense, it's a prerequesite that is important for all other things to function.

Also, it's not 'more about teamwork' if a lone player is guaranteed to be dead, that just makes it a numbers game - nothing to do with how good teamwork is. If you want to make the game more about teamwork you actually give that individual a chance to test those 6 enemies and see just how good their teamwork is. This is one of the biggest misconceptions that people are bandying about since the changes, that the game depending on numbers = teamwork focused. It's absolutely not the case and is the opposite.

 

[hazy]

I played with the upperhead when the turning speed was the same as it was in MM. I can guarantee you that if the upperhead doesn't change as well, you will see the return of spinning as a favourable approach to melee. Of course the other problems will be fixed but you bring the old problems back, I guess it is just a matter as to which is the most tolerable flaw.

 

[Evanovic]

I played with the upperhead when the turning speed was the same as it was in MM. I can guarantee you that if the upperhead doesn't change as well, you will see the return of spinning as a favourable approach to melee. Of course the other problems will be fixed but you bring the old problems back, I guess it is just a matter as to which is the most tolerable flaw.

The main suggestion has always been an increase to a midpoint between MM turning speed and current NW speed. This, in conjunction with reducing the length of the bayonets more and the slow down of the overhead animation that the devs are now planning should fix a lot of problems without bringing back the constant 360 spinning.

 

[matmannen]

I played with the upperhead when the turning speed was the same as it was in MM. I can guarantee you that if the upperhead doesn't change as well, you will see the return of spinning as a favourable approach to melee. Of course the other problems will be fixed but you bring the old problems back, I guess it is just a matter as to which is the most tolerable flaw.

The main suggestion has always been an increase to a midpoint between MM turning speed and current NW speed. This, in conjunction with reducing the length of the bayonets more and the slow down of the overhead animation that the devs are now planning should fix a lot of problems without bringing back the constant 360 spinning.

I agree with you there; some turning speed should be raised, but not as it was in MM, i want battles not dance contests.

 

[OsricFromHamlet]

I played with the upperhead when the turning speed was the same as it was in MM. I can guarantee you that if the upperhead doesn't change as well, you will see the return of spinning as a favourable approach to melee. Of course the other problems will be fixed but you bring the old problems back, I guess it is just a matter as to which is the most tolerable flaw.

The main suggestion has always been an increase to a midpoint between MM turning speed and current NW speed. This, in conjunction with reducing the length of the bayonets more and the slow down of the overhead animation that the devs are now planning should fix a lot of problems without bringing back the constant 360 spinning.

That sounds like a reasonable solution.  The instant up-stab is, in particular, a real bugbear for me; it should take more than half a second (and some effort) to hoist a musket above your head for goodness sake!

 

[Vissy]

Honestly, without that increase, the fights are still going to be "dance contests".

 

[Hekko]

That's where holding comes in. Unless someone is really disciplined when it comes to holding, holding tends to break the pace.

It doesn't work that way, I generally hold my stabs, and people like Melton, Mem, Vorlen, Evan etc. do not let those attacks through. Because you cannot add other "safety signals" to it, like doing the held stab as a part of a swipe or reverse-swipe, because these "safety signals" actually mean that he is safe because of the low turning speed. So the only ones the held stab works against are people chambering, and no one chambers because it's self-defeating to chamber pretty much.

I didn't mean that you just forget about the up attack entirely, my point was it wasn't as big of a deal as it is in NW. Same deal with the whole focusing on offensive skill in MM. Again, the way to counter the hit block exchange thing is to just hold your attack and it disrupts the flow, works almost every time and if they're still able to counter, then it will be a back and forth duel the rest of the time but it would also be in MM.

In MM you had ways to make helds stabs more effective, you had implied chambers, you had spinning (not that it was really effective but still), you had chambers, held rechambers etc. If both sides had mastered these things you might end up with a stagnant battle assuming both had a reactive playstyle. Where as in NW it turns into a stagnant exchange assuming both sides know how to block.