Spears suck, here's why and a few possible solutions

[MaRaud3r]

The problem seems to be that spearmen never target horses... only ranged weapons do. Also the velocity concept breaks spears/pikes. You should still be able to push a spear deeply into an enemy even when given no room to draw back the weapon or push forward. That should be an advantage of spears and any thrusting attack.

well said

 

[McGough]

Even in 1v1 combat a spear is an excellent weapon to throw your opponent's guard off and unless he's very well trained, he's likely going to be stabbed and poked to death until he's come anywhere near the spear/pikeman.

To give an *idea* how spears might have been used....



Lindybeige and Schologladatoria experiment..

 

[phillies6f]

Agree 100%. Infantry formations in general are very hard to keep intact with the way shield wall and line currently work.

 

[imgran]

I've had some success actually by putting my pikemen in a loose formation. They seem to switch to spears when they're near a horse, so after the first couple charges they have their spears out, and a loose formation gives them room to use them.

 

[black_bulldog]

I've had some success actually by putting my pikemen in a loose formation. They seem to switch to spears when they're near a horse, so after the first couple charges they have their spears out, and a loose formation gives them room to use them.

Interesting I'll have to try that next time.

To me it seems like looters with a pitchfork are more effective than a solider with a pike at stopping a charging horse because they have only 1 weapon. That seems to say that the ai knows how to use one, and that pikes are effective but ai isn't prioritizing using the right weapon against cavalry.

 

[RegamusMaximus]

To give an *idea* how spears might have been used....



Lindybeige and Schologladatoria experiment..

Whilst it's a good rough way of seeing the outcomes, those tests I feel would of favored the spear even more so, if the opponent had to fear being wounded or killed. I highly doubt most would charge in so recklessly, if it wasn't just a padded bit of fun

 

[Manhattan]

Nobody has mentioned that most spearmen in this game do not even use their spears, which should be the first thing. I have sturgian spearmen who all switch to using their swords 30 seconds into the battle and never revert back to spear, not in a shield wall, or anything. They confront cavalry with their swords.

I think maybe the AI is making an estimation that because spears also deal such pitiful damage, they are the inferior weapon to use vs. their swords, so they select their swords instead.

 

[Osium]

Big problem is that spears are handled as strictly a slow, clumsy reach weapon.

There is a reason that in Asia, the Middle East, and Europe, for about 4000 years, with a little blip for about 400 years, spears were the dominant melee weapon of choice, and swords were a secondary sidearm.

Spear thrusting, needs to be much faster, and actually do real damage. That's the fix. Spear thrusts are quick, sudden jabs, not this long wind up and slow delivery. Fix that, and spears will be far more useful.

 

[BattanianDruid]

Big problem is that spears are handled as strictly a slow, clumsy reach weapon.

There is a reason that in Asia, the Middle East, and Europe, for about 4000 years, with a little blip for about 400 years, spears were the dominant melee weapon of choice, and swords were a secondary sidearm.

Spear thrusting, needs to be much faster, and actually do real damage. That's the fix. Spear thrusts are quick, sudden jabs, not this long wind up and slow delivery. Fix that, and spears will be far more useful.

While this is accurate I do get why the devs are probably hesitant to implement it.

By far the most deadly aspect of the spear in real life is the speed. It is very difficult to avoid a sudden spear jab and spears are incredibly good at feinting and then jabbing the enemy in the head when the enemy went to block low. In real life there's barely any time to react.

Obviously this doesn't work in a video game. It is the same reason characters pull their arms all the way back dramatically every time they go for a slash or thrust. The characters look like they are fighting underwater so that the player has time to react to what is about to come their way.

All that said spears could still do with being much faster in the thrust. The attack is still telegraphed in the pull back and the fact the spear only has two directions of attack means it is by default easier to defend against than any other weapon. Combine a faster thrust, more damage on the thrust, and a better bash attack to open the enemy's guard and I think players would feel a lot more like the Red Viper than some commoner with a blunted spear that weighs 50 bounds.

 

[Osium]

Yea, I mean, you're exactly right. Spears are terrible in game because they are so simplified, but also because in reality they are so effective AND simple to use. That doesn't make for particularly dynamic or skillful game play, when the best weapon is also the easiest weapon to use.

 

[h1zchan]

I miss the spear formation in the viking conquest dlc. Napoleonic wars mod also has decent bayonet implementation.

 

[artdayne]

Big problem is that spears are handled as strictly a slow, clumsy reach weapon.

There is a reason that in Asia, the Middle East, and Europe, for about 4000 years, with a little blip for about 400 years, spears were the dominant melee weapon of choice, and swords were a secondary sidearm.

Spear thrusting, needs to be much faster, and actually do real damage. That's the fix. Spear thrusts are quick, sudden jabs, not this long wind up and slow delivery. Fix that, and spears will be far more useful.

Once you raise your proficiency up with the weapon it gets to be quite a bit better on the ground but in general I agree with you that Spear thrusting should be faster I also think that unique to Spears they should increase the damage on short ranged stabs, there should be less of a penalty for stabbing someone without having full extension of the spear. The reason I say that is that in reality you can easily change your hand position on a spear where stabbing someone in close range isn't too much of an issue, it's far too penalizing in this game.

 

[sigi1]

Spear thrusts are too slow. They should be noticeably faster than lances but they shouldn't be insanely fast that they can fend off a swordsman in 1v1. Maybe nerf lance thrust speed? I've been able to beat a spear inf on Cav in MP a lot more often than I should. Also, the hitbox to stop a horse is too small.

 

[drallim33]

You are right about pikes being too short, lances are too. When cavalry charge into spear infantry, nobody dies because they can't hit each other. They just jostle each other about.

 

[Pejot]

It's because the rear behavior of horses is only triggered when moving and hit by a spear thrust. Check the MeleeHitCallback method inside Mission.cs from the 'MountAndBlade.dll'.
So when a whole cavalry unit charge into a whole infantry units, the first horsemen tend to get reared, especially if they do not charge in a perfect line parrallel to the spearmen.
That's also why if you charge alone you get always reared, because all of the ennemy spearmen can attempt to thrust their spears at a single target.

That's also connected to AI targeting. They choose the closest target. If one horseman is leading they will all attack him. That's also why ranged seem op cause they shoot closest target and if one unit is hit by multiple arrows it falls easily.

 

[Tankred787]

Well, and that's a good thread!

So, I myself playing as a quite nimble foot soldier with spear, shield, scimitar and a couple of throwables, and doing pretty good honestly! But to do so you need high (90-100 and above) athletics, same or above polearm skill and a lower-than-30.0 equipment weight. As soon as I got used to the combnation, I never lost a single duel with spear against any opponent, mounted or no.

But.

To do so you need proper footwork to dodge certain attacks, keep your distance, punish facehuggers with shield/shaft bashing, aim your strikes carefully (stab them in the face, if too close - stab in the feet, you need a good spear (imperial one is good for starters, menavilon if you ok with short range, fine steel leaf spear for some more lenghth).

When I, on rare occasion, use 1 or 2-handers? "Haha blade go chop chop". And it don't even matter that my weapon skills for such arms are lower, it's just MUCH easier to use effectively.

There is some theoretical arguments against spear buff:

"But spears are strictly anti cav, you shouldn't use it against infantry!" - no. Well, they are to some degree, but not so much. Pikes are. And even then...

I see charging cavalryman. I can:

1) Stab his horse with my spear to stop it, then stap the horseman 2-4 times to kill him, hopng he will not run away or block.
2) Take my javelin and just pick him off his horse in 1 second.
3) Bring mah tuhanda/glaive/voulge/etc and just cleave him in half along with his puny pony, his wife, his son and half of his neighbours because the sheer amount of damage allows me to do so easily.

Which makes spears, well, not so optimal choice for anti-cavalry warfare.

"But spears are all about range, no wonder you should keep it," - and with that I totally agree! But. We have bows, crossbows, javelins and other ranged weapons with more range, damage, ease of use AND just as useless when someone facehugging you.

So, to use spears effectively we need:

1) Significant buff to stab speed and damage when spear used without shield. It's easier to facehug then prevent such actions against you, so why the latter should be less rewarding? Besides, it will compensate lack of shield, because current increases for 2h grip certainly fail this task.
2) Keep our distance, and more means to do so. Like those push back perks, but NOT locked behind a TONS of grindy grind.
3) Ability to adjust the grip on a spear when pressing X using it two-handed, for even faster stabs, but with much shorter range.

"Peasant please, spears are fine, just get a horse," - but I don't want to. There is cavalry spears (or lances) and there is infantry spears. I want to use the latter as it is supposed to be used. And was used with great effect.

So this is what I think on the matter. More of a rant than an actual post maybe, and I talk only about SP spears (I heard they are/was pretty OP in MP due to some exploit or something), but still.

 

[Sarissofoi]

They should revert spear to the state before MP nerf in beta.
They were actually useful then and would be great in SP as basic infantry weapon.
Now if somebody take out all spears from infantry most units would actually improve.

 

[rowyerboat]

It's because the rear behavior of horses is only triggered when moving and hit by a spear thrust. Check the MeleeHitCallback method inside Mission.cs from the 'MountAndBlade.dll'.
So when a whole cavalry unit charge into a whole infantry units, the first horsemen tend to get reared, especially if they do not charge in a perfect line parrallel to the spearmen.
That's also why if you charge alone you get always reared, because all of the ennemy spearmen can attempt to thrust their spears at a single target.

Interesting, was about to say I've been speared on horseback a number of times and it seems pretty effective, but then again I tend to go full Leroy Jenkins from time to time. So i.e. without the support of other cav.

 

[BattanianDruid]

To do so you need proper footwork to dodge certain attacks, keep your distance, punish facehuggers with shield/shaft bashing, aim your strikes carefully (stab them in the face, if too close - stab in the feet, you need a good spear (imperial one is good for starters, menavilon if you ok with short range, fine steel leaf spear for some more lenghth).

Something I've learned you can do, albeit not consistently, is go for an overhead thrust and hit the opponent's legs or feet by aiming low. The enemy raises their shield to block and if they raise it too high your overhead strike can still get them in the exposed leg.

That is probably the most accurate to real life you can get with spears in this game. It isn't technically a feint but it is a misdirection which spears were excellent for.

 

[Stratigo]

While this is accurate I do get why the devs are probably hesitant to implement it.

By far the most deadly aspect of the spear in real life is the speed. It is very difficult to avoid a sudden spear jab and spears are incredibly good at feinting and then jabbing the enemy in the head when the enemy went to block low. In real life there's barely any time to react.

Obviously this doesn't work in a video game. It is the same reason characters pull their arms all the way back dramatically every time they go for a slash or thrust. The characters look like they are fighting underwater so that the player has time to react to what is about to come their way.

All that said spears could still do with being much faster in the thrust. The attack is still telegraphed in the pull back and the fact the spear only has two directions of attack means it is by default easier to defend against than any other weapon. Combine a faster thrust, more damage on the thrust, and a better bash attack to open the enemy's guard and I think players would feel a lot more like the Red Viper than some commoner with a blunted spear that weighs 50 bounds.

you could argue that a classic roman legion's primary weapon was a throwing spear more than his sword. This is a hot debate (and has been for decades) among historians specialized in the study of the period though.