Now this is something that concerns me and i hope many other players, its my baby doll, my first born daughter, my love and paramount = the 2 handed classes in Mount and Blade. Hundred of hours have i played mostly 2 handed in Warband, and enjoyed every minute of it. What was a burning passion for 2handed classes is now one big cognitive dissonance, because i feel like s**t everytime i pick my beloved 2 handed classes in skirmish, i feel like a total tool taking away the win from my teamates, for the sake of my personal enjoyment (sometimes, most of the time its s**te).
This thread concerns Skirmish only. 2h classes are amazing in Captain mode and they are relevant in any kind of chaotic-type mode (TDM and Siege). But when it comes to organized, low-scaled fighting, 2h classes are completely under-used, underperforming and irrelevant.
All of you skirmish veterans, take a step back and ask yourself, when you play a shield-inf class and you encounter a 2h class, what is the first thing that pops into your mind ?
Here's mine : "Ahaha a free kill on a silver platter for the Yukmouth". 90% of the times i'm right, its a free kill for me, sometimes i get surprised by a Menavlion.
No matter the class i play, when i see a 2h class near me, i feel safe, because i know he's dying, in the next 10 seconds, no matter the cause, he's dying soon from me or any of my teamates.
TLDR :
-They die as quick as they kill their melee opponents
-Too vulnerable to projectiles, my suggestion : nerf projectiles damage and turn them into blunt damage.
-Some classes (mostly archers) has 2h weapons while 2handed classes should be the only ones having them
-They should be the ones who has access and throwing weapons, not shield wearers
-They should all run as fast as the savage
-Their Meta : Flankers/Assassins.
What are these classes ?
-Menavlion Infantry
-Voulgier
-Savage (lets highlight this one)
-Berserker
-Guard
Pros and Cons of these classes
Pros :
-They run faster (especially Savage)
-They out-damage their opponents (ONLY when the opponent is not heavily armored). They can oneshot low-armored opponents, and it takes 2 to 4 shots to kill an heavily armored opponent.
-Longer weapons
Cons :
-The infamous most cons of all the cons : they are ultra, massively, extremely vulnerable to projectiles. Their armor is so low, MANY MANY times throwing weapons will straight up one-shot them. When appearing on the battlefield, all the archers turn into predators and start spamming arrows in the 2hander's direction.
-Low armor. Armor so low, 1h weapon will 2 shot you most of the time.
-Vulnerable to projectiles
-Harder to block with (the block delay is being addressed, this may change)
-Vulnerable to projectiles (the amount of throwing weapons are being adressed, this may help a little)
-No shield, which makes them vulnerable to projectiles
-Also, they are SUPER vulnerable to weapons such as Bows, Crossbows, Javelins and Throwing axes.
Where to start...
1- Why in all the millions of f**ks would someone be masochistic enough to pick a class, one of which, most the times, takes as many hits to down his opponents as the classes that are wearing shields ? Average of 2 hits. Of course, 2 handed classes will more likely 1 shot people that are wearing linen as armor (low tier archer classes, other 2 handed classes, peasants), but when it comes to armored classes, 1 handed maces are more lethal overall, and they come with a big fat shield.
2- Some classes are stealing their specialization right in their faces, the most guilty being the Palatine Guard. For a mere amount of 30 moral, you can be a Palatine guard instead of a Menavlion infantry, and have a Menavlion for a weapon.
Menavlion Infantry has 100 hp, 7 armor and 80 movement speed. Palatine Guard has 32 armor, 75 movement speed and 100 hp. So basicly, the Palatine Guard is an armored Menavlion Infantry with a bow and SLIGHTLY slower movement speed.
Same could be said for the Fiann having a 2handed weapon, the Hunter having a 2handed weapon, the Khans Guard being the BEST 2 handed class in the game, which happens to be an Archer.
So not only are these archers the Nemesis for 2 handed classes, but they humiliate them by being 2 handed classes themselves when they run out of arrows.
2 handed classes should be the ones and only specialized 2 handed classes. Remove all these 2 handed weapons from archer classes and tweak the weapon proficiency so the 2 handed classes are the true specialized ones.
Arrows and Bolts are 1 to 2 shotting 2h classes. Now this is a difficult thing to address, because if these are too nerfed, they become null against armor. Arrows and Bolts should be nerfed and turned into blunt damage, reducing the damage they deal to low armored classes, but keeping their damage relevant on heavy armored classes (so basicly they deal the same amount of damage to anyone). I do not care if this makes sense or not in a realistic fashion, i dont care if in real life Arrows arent considered "blunt", this is a game, and for gameplay's sake, they should become blunt and balanced in a way they dont destroy 2 handed low armored classes.
Discussion : What is the position of the 2 handed classes in the current Meta ?
They do not occupy any relevant position in the current meta which is way too overflowing with projectiles of all sorts, i may change my stance a bit once theres less projectiles in the fights, but i think 2 handed classes will remain irrelevant and total tools when it comes to skirmish. They have a weakness that makes them so heavily flawed, none of the cons listed before are making up for it. None of the cons is worth being that vulnerable on the battlefield.
I would like to point finger at the one 2handed class that is, IMO the closest that can ever be to "competitive" state : The savage.
The savage has a VERY high movement speed, which makes them harder to hit for projectiles, significantly helping them overcome the main weakness of 2 handed classes. More often than not, Savages are abble to dance their way to an archer missing his shots over and over again until the Savage has his hands in the poor archer's neck. This movement speed is caused by the ultra low armor the Savage has, so from my personal experience, 75% of the projectiles that hits me will one shot me as Savage.
The savage also has a weapon of mass destruction : a 2 handed MACE. This magnificent weapon truly is a weapon to be feared by Oathsworns, Legionary, Sergents and all other heavy armored classes. Making the Savage quite possibly their most dangerous opponent (until these Heavy Inf throw something at the Savage and oneshots him).
So, basicly, i believe that high movement speed is what makes 2 handed classes the most relevant they can possibly be, because it turns them into what they should be in the Meta = Flankers/Assassins/Damage Dealers. When we look at any competitive game that works with classes of characters, such as League of Legends, theres always Damage dealers, Tanks and Supports. In Bannerlord, Cavalry would be the "support" class, Heavy inf the tanks, and damage dealers would be archers and 2 handed classes. Movement Speed helps 2handed classes do what they are meant to do = the most damage dealt in a fight, because it allows them to slip through ennemies like a soap bar and wound them one after the others. Movement speed gives them the possibility to flank archers and surprise them. So often do i surprise archers in their backs as savage. Unfortunately, Savage is the only class that benefits from this type of movement speed. All the other 2handed classes listed are too slow, therefore too easy to hit with projectiles, and unable to flank and properly deal damage.
I said it in another thread of mine, and i'll bring it back here : 2 handed classes should be the ones who has the throwing weapons, and heavy inf classes should NOT have access to throwing weapons. Giving them this perk reduces the amount of projectiles directed to them, but also gives them a edge when it comes to damage dealing.
This thread concerns Skirmish only. 2h classes are amazing in Captain mode and they are relevant in any kind of chaotic-type mode (TDM and Siege). But when it comes to organized, low-scaled fighting, 2h classes are completely under-used, underperforming and irrelevant.
All of you skirmish veterans, take a step back and ask yourself, when you play a shield-inf class and you encounter a 2h class, what is the first thing that pops into your mind ?
Here's mine : "Ahaha a free kill on a silver platter for the Yukmouth". 90% of the times i'm right, its a free kill for me, sometimes i get surprised by a Menavlion.
No matter the class i play, when i see a 2h class near me, i feel safe, because i know he's dying, in the next 10 seconds, no matter the cause, he's dying soon from me or any of my teamates.
TLDR :
-They die as quick as they kill their melee opponents
-Too vulnerable to projectiles, my suggestion : nerf projectiles damage and turn them into blunt damage.
-Some classes (mostly archers) has 2h weapons while 2handed classes should be the only ones having them
-They should be the ones who has access and throwing weapons, not shield wearers
-They should all run as fast as the savage
-Their Meta : Flankers/Assassins.
What are these classes ?
-Menavlion Infantry
-Voulgier
-Savage (lets highlight this one)
-Berserker
-Guard
Pros and Cons of these classes
Pros :
-They run faster (especially Savage)
-They out-damage their opponents (ONLY when the opponent is not heavily armored). They can oneshot low-armored opponents, and it takes 2 to 4 shots to kill an heavily armored opponent.
-Longer weapons
Cons :
-The infamous most cons of all the cons : they are ultra, massively, extremely vulnerable to projectiles. Their armor is so low, MANY MANY times throwing weapons will straight up one-shot them. When appearing on the battlefield, all the archers turn into predators and start spamming arrows in the 2hander's direction.
-Low armor. Armor so low, 1h weapon will 2 shot you most of the time.
-Vulnerable to projectiles
-Harder to block with (the block delay is being addressed, this may change)
-Vulnerable to projectiles (the amount of throwing weapons are being adressed, this may help a little)
-No shield, which makes them vulnerable to projectiles
-Also, they are SUPER vulnerable to weapons such as Bows, Crossbows, Javelins and Throwing axes.
Where to start...
1- Why in all the millions of f**ks would someone be masochistic enough to pick a class, one of which, most the times, takes as many hits to down his opponents as the classes that are wearing shields ? Average of 2 hits. Of course, 2 handed classes will more likely 1 shot people that are wearing linen as armor (low tier archer classes, other 2 handed classes, peasants), but when it comes to armored classes, 1 handed maces are more lethal overall, and they come with a big fat shield.
2- Some classes are stealing their specialization right in their faces, the most guilty being the Palatine Guard. For a mere amount of 30 moral, you can be a Palatine guard instead of a Menavlion infantry, and have a Menavlion for a weapon.
Menavlion Infantry has 100 hp, 7 armor and 80 movement speed. Palatine Guard has 32 armor, 75 movement speed and 100 hp. So basicly, the Palatine Guard is an armored Menavlion Infantry with a bow and SLIGHTLY slower movement speed.
Same could be said for the Fiann having a 2handed weapon, the Hunter having a 2handed weapon, the Khans Guard being the BEST 2 handed class in the game, which happens to be an Archer.
So not only are these archers the Nemesis for 2 handed classes, but they humiliate them by being 2 handed classes themselves when they run out of arrows.
2 handed classes should be the ones and only specialized 2 handed classes. Remove all these 2 handed weapons from archer classes and tweak the weapon proficiency so the 2 handed classes are the true specialized ones.
Arrows and Bolts are 1 to 2 shotting 2h classes. Now this is a difficult thing to address, because if these are too nerfed, they become null against armor. Arrows and Bolts should be nerfed and turned into blunt damage, reducing the damage they deal to low armored classes, but keeping their damage relevant on heavy armored classes (so basicly they deal the same amount of damage to anyone). I do not care if this makes sense or not in a realistic fashion, i dont care if in real life Arrows arent considered "blunt", this is a game, and for gameplay's sake, they should become blunt and balanced in a way they dont destroy 2 handed low armored classes.
Discussion : What is the position of the 2 handed classes in the current Meta ?
They do not occupy any relevant position in the current meta which is way too overflowing with projectiles of all sorts, i may change my stance a bit once theres less projectiles in the fights, but i think 2 handed classes will remain irrelevant and total tools when it comes to skirmish. They have a weakness that makes them so heavily flawed, none of the cons listed before are making up for it. None of the cons is worth being that vulnerable on the battlefield.
I would like to point finger at the one 2handed class that is, IMO the closest that can ever be to "competitive" state : The savage.
The savage has a VERY high movement speed, which makes them harder to hit for projectiles, significantly helping them overcome the main weakness of 2 handed classes. More often than not, Savages are abble to dance their way to an archer missing his shots over and over again until the Savage has his hands in the poor archer's neck. This movement speed is caused by the ultra low armor the Savage has, so from my personal experience, 75% of the projectiles that hits me will one shot me as Savage.
The savage also has a weapon of mass destruction : a 2 handed MACE. This magnificent weapon truly is a weapon to be feared by Oathsworns, Legionary, Sergents and all other heavy armored classes. Making the Savage quite possibly their most dangerous opponent (until these Heavy Inf throw something at the Savage and oneshots him).
So, basicly, i believe that high movement speed is what makes 2 handed classes the most relevant they can possibly be, because it turns them into what they should be in the Meta = Flankers/Assassins/Damage Dealers. When we look at any competitive game that works with classes of characters, such as League of Legends, theres always Damage dealers, Tanks and Supports. In Bannerlord, Cavalry would be the "support" class, Heavy inf the tanks, and damage dealers would be archers and 2 handed classes. Movement Speed helps 2handed classes do what they are meant to do = the most damage dealt in a fight, because it allows them to slip through ennemies like a soap bar and wound them one after the others. Movement speed gives them the possibility to flank archers and surprise them. So often do i surprise archers in their backs as savage. Unfortunately, Savage is the only class that benefits from this type of movement speed. All the other 2handed classes listed are too slow, therefore too easy to hit with projectiles, and unable to flank and properly deal damage.
I said it in another thread of mine, and i'll bring it back here : 2 handed classes should be the ones who has the throwing weapons, and heavy inf classes should NOT have access to throwing weapons. Giving them this perk reduces the amount of projectiles directed to them, but also gives them a edge when it comes to damage dealing.
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