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Rhodoks step up

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Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
Looking at the style of your post, you must admit - I'm a cultural influence. :wink:



(On a serious note, Rhodoks and Nords are not balanced in any way and yes - it is a problem. Not everyone likes or wants to play with all-Mamluke party, but just because they don't doesn't mean they should be heavily penalized. Playing with all-Mamluke party with player on a horse is like auto-win compared to playing on foot. The worse thing is that both of these Factions would be just fine if AI knew how to thrust spears when in formation, and if both Nords and Rhodoks had two infantry lines: a spearmen line and sword/other line. Nords would have spears and war spears as in multiplayer while Rhodoks Pikes and Awlpikes. With some basic knowledge of switching weapons. Unfortunately Taleworlds will not do this. I don't know how much work this simple change would require but I don't think it's realistic to expect it. Instead, Taleworlds thinks that it's better to buff infantry stats high up - like with Huscarls. I'm not a fan of this, personally, and would prefer to see focus on tactics instead of stats.)

Play as another faction.

I am a strong adherent of that wolf among men, that king Graveth. If he only had spearmen at his service, I'd try make best of them. :smile: Not counting the claimants, his personal integrity is better than any other king.
 

Da-V-Man

Squire
Yoshi Murasaki said:
Looking at the style of your post, you must admit - I'm a cultural influence. :wink:

I may like the highlanders, but I'm no Japanese Mountain Hermit. :wink:

But as well for me on a more serious but still 4 in the morning tired note, I have played with the Rhodoks and haven't had any problems with them versus the AI. I usually go with a majority of Infantry in a line and then some Sharpshooters behind them and it generally works pretty well. The sergents and even veteran spearmen work well against the enemy, except for maybe an army of mamelukes (but then who doesn't). When I have trouble in battles, I find it's more with be being knocked out than the enemy destroying us. Really the only thing I would want for the Rhodoks is a very light cavalry unit that can be used to chase down routers.

In sieges I've recently tried having the Sharpshooters holding a line in front of the infantry and have them pick the enemy off with bolts instead of climbing up the ladder. Now that you can move troops around in siege tower scenes it works even better for those as the archers can pick off all the defenders in front of the big hole in the wall - so long as you position them properly.
 

Old One-Eye

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
Well, you seem to think "balanced" means top-tier infantry being equal in every way to top-tier cavalry which it never was until the invention of gunpowder. Infantry can only beat cavalry by cost efficiency and sheer numbers. If you would argue for increasing the cost of heavy cavalry (presently a unit costs 66% more if you give them a horse, any horse) you might have a case.

Firepower (damage output). Maneuver. Protection/Cover. A man with a spear can only hope to compete with a man on a horse with a spear in one of the three, ie protection/cover. This is, and has always been, the three fundamentals of combat. Warband does a good job of portraying this. Not perfect, but good.

You might also want to try charging a force of mixed cavalry into a large Rhodok force yourself. Don't give orders as you're sure to insta-win anyway. Also make sure that they have superior numbers, why not approximately 66% more troops than you. Then come back and tell us the results.
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
Kettle Black said:
Infantry can only beat cavalry by cost efficiency and sheer numbers.

As I said in several previous threads - the movie portrayal of cavalry is just that, movie portrayal.

Equal number of cavalry will *not* charge equal number of infantry with pikes. That just *wont* happen.

Multiplayer in this game is much more accurate depiction of actual medieval combat. Horseman might outmaneuver a spearman and kill him. But there is no way that cavalry charge the way AI does it in singleplayer would overrun a line of pikemen. The same thing will happen that happens in multiplayer.


I will not on purpose go into how cavalry should be more expensive, because that's less important than making spearmen line do their work.


If you disagree I'll just drop the topic because I'm tired of seeing everyone as medieval expert these days just because they saw Lord of the Rings where Rohan charges a throng of orcs armed with pikes and orcs decide to point their pikes up instead of annihilate the cavalry. The same thing happens in singleplayer but it does not happen in reality.
 

Old One-Eye

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
I am perfectly convinced that my knowledge of historical combat exceed yours.
We all know that the AI in Warband doesn't handle all units equally well. The two main types who are used in less than optimal ways are pike/spearmen and horse archers.  Pikemen are unable to perform optimally in ranks - skirmish cavalry do not use their superior maneuver and speed to stay out of melee range. We all know that. Flogging dead horses with hyperbole like "spearmen are worse than Looters!" or "everyone who doesn't play the same way I do are lolsuX0rn00bs" does not make for an interesting debate.
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
Let's go in a different direction then.

For a Rhodok army, what companion foot setup is the best?

Mine already use Bow and arrows, but I still can't figger out whether 1Hshield is better or 2H and 2 arrow quivers. The poll in this forum is overwhelmingly in support of 1Hshield, although I don't know if this is for foot or mounted combat as most people use them.

My logic goes something like this: since they use a bow, they'll shoot anyway until enemy gets closer, where everyone goes in melee mode. Here shield won't do much since enemy at this point stops hurling javelins.. occasional missile will be stopped by a shield but -
..from what I've seen 1Hshield makes them too weak somehow, perhaps too defense. When I observe them with 2H they just swing and swing and overwhelm the enemy.

I gave them in previous game great hammers (I needed Mamluke counter) and they destroyed everything. When defending in a siege, 6 companions beat 100 sarranids with these hammers. The problem is now, I didn't do much testing having played on Realistic before, so perhaps companions would do even better with Morning Star or elite scimitar plus shield. Also, another problem is that hammer is blunt damage. Seeing 90 enemies merely knocked unconscious doesn't seem that helpful especially since I take no prisoners. In siege enemy lord retreats and doesn't lose much (although I wonder if I killed those 90 if they would re-appear anyway).


It looks like this mainly:

War Cleaver
vs Great Hammer
vs Morning Star
vs Elite Scimitar plus shield (bad for roleplay, doesn't fit the theme)
vs Military Pick plus shield
vs Military Hammer plus shield


ps: I'd just like to add that extra arrow quiver can mean a lot in some cases, as my companions go full combat (meaning, 30 str, 10 power draw).
 

yugop

Knight
Troops with weapons that have no thrust tend to do better, for the same reason as spearmen being unable to do any damage most of the time. Any reasonably high damage weapon without a thrust attack will do. Giving companions a 2 handed weapon is a good idea, since I have seen companions swapping weapons according to the situation they are in (I really did !). So yeah, giving them a 1 handed weapon, a shield, and a two handed weapon, works, as long as they don't have a thrust attack.
And, well, I've seen looters beating veteran spearmen in an even fight. It was in an older version though (and they did have weapons, the spearman bug wasn't in yet). It would be awesome if they included the AI script mp bots have for avoiding kicks in sp for spearmen, they'd be much more effective since they would keep their distance better.
Hammers are an overkill in siege, that's probably one of the reasons why no AI troop uses them. Rhodok macemen used to have great hammers in pike and blade, and they were way too powerful in siege defense.

But yeah, Rhodoks are not completely broken of course, but they're pretty bad in native, just like kerghits.
 

gamerman345

Sergeant
Qwertyman said:
am i the only one who NEVER sees any campaign map expansion?  at most a castle or two falls, only to be retaken.

I agree. In all my time playing, i have never, ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever, ever seen a town get captured by bot armies.  :neutral:
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
I noticed that AI with shield is usually better in close combat than AI without. It seems because AI actually use shield to block. AI without shield will block only very sporadically and then half of those block seems to be just lucky chamberblocks. This is from observation of AI vs AI as well as player vs AI.

So if you expect your companions to get in to hand to hand often, shield all the way. If you are confident to keep them out of melee, then another set of arrows comes in handy.
 

tyrannicide

Knight
gamerman345 said:
I agree. In all my time playing, i have never, ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever, ever seen a town get captured by bot armies.  :neutral:
Try playing for more than five minutes.
 

Old One-Eye

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
If I setup a companion as an archer/crossbowman I never give them a shield. I want them to fire, not cover from missiles. So that means polearm or 2Hander. If we fight cavalry a lot I give them balanced hafted blades or warspears in the beginning until they get higher strength and depending on the feel of my army or the companion setup I later go with Balanced Greatswords or some huge gorram axe with at least reasonable speed. 2H iron mace has been effective too. I generally dislike weapons with a weapon speed below 90, esp for archers/crossbowmen who sometimes can be a bit slow in switching weapons.

For horse archers I really get good results with both hafted blade variants.
 
rhoddocks arent that bad.  they put merc cavalry in there for a reason.  you can also train up sword sisters or if your lucky get some manhunters (i used the troop editor to make farmers to either merc or manhunter).      rhoddock sharpshooters are absolutely lethal in sieges ive tried both attacking and especially defending with mostly sharpshooters with the rest being seargents and infantry and it was a slaughter either way.  frankly rhoddocks are the best for sieges period since cavalry doesnt matter in those.  pick troops from a country that you more than likely wont fight,  grab some khergit lancers.

the group i had the most difficulty with was vaegirs, for some reason they just didnt seem to get it together in sieges or field combat for me.  khergit suck at seige but the lancer upgrade seemed to help them alot........that and they are just freaking annoying to kill cause they rid allover the place.

for companioin set up i give them shields, swords (they tend to have longer reach than maces and axes so they are more effective from horseback) and crossbow and bolts.  no bows and arrows cause they just do that stupid circle and shoot crap.  i tried giving them two-handers initially but they would get shot up to quickly during sieges.
 

Dohati

Veteran
tyrannicide said:
gamerman345 said:
I agree. In all my time playing, i have never, ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever, ever seen a town get captured by bot armies.  :neutral:
Try playing for more than five minutes.

I played till day 250 till the first town changed hands which was Shariz... Took a lot longer then 5 minutes... Also didn't last to long in Rhodock hands... I also don't see it happen very often in any game I play unless I am helping a faction. :p
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
yugop said:
Hammers are an overkill in siege, that's probably one of the reasons why no AI troop uses them. Rhodok macemen used to have great hammers in pike and blade, and they were way too powerful in siege defense.

By "overkill" you mean I should use hammers on companions, or that much firepower isn't needed so I can go for slightly weaker but much faster 2H-held Morning Star? Or War Cleaver?

As I said, my companions (6 of them) seemed to have obliterated hundreds of enemy troops with hammers, but they just knocked them unconscious and not killed, which is a bit of a problem.
 

Dark Elf

Squire
Dohati said:
tyrannicide said:
gamerman345 said:
I agree. In all my time playing, i have never, ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever, ever seen a town get captured by bot armies.  :neutral:
Try playing for more than five minutes.

I played till day 250 till the first town changed hands which was Shariz... Took a lot longer then 5 minutes... Also didn't last to long in Rhodock hands... I also don't see it happen very often in any game I play unless I am helping a faction. :p

Try to play with good campaign Ai?
It's days 145 in my game, Swadia already half dead,  only Praven and several nearby castle left. All of this without my intervention, i'm still trading to make factory in every town.
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
I don't recommend good campaign AI. AI is in no way smarter it just gets lot of bonuses and cheats mainly in speed, quality and quantity of recruitment. My experience is that you will beat lord and in 2-3 days you will meet him running around with party full of highest tier knights. Also castle garrisons are trained in to highest tier units in no time. You will end up besieging castles you lost one month ago defended with 80 huscarls and similar number of marksmen while you will struggle to finance your 2 tier garrison.

Good campaign AI is really only for those who wants added challenge but it is challenging to the point of not been realistic (well as much as computer game can bee realistic).
 

Dark Elf

Squire
There's a bug in older patch that make Ai go all elite.  In later patch 1.126+, Ai always maintain balance army even in hard diff.

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,128730.0.html
Basically Ai hard = more Ai swarm in marshal lead army + double recruitment speed.
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
So in the end does AI on good cheat or? Will he instantly have everything again in 2 days, while AI on less-than-good will need more to recover?
 

Dark Elf

Squire
Yoshi Murasaki said:
So in the end does AI on good cheat or? Will he instantly have everything again in 2 days, while AI on less-than-good will need more to recover?

Lords Info :
Lords can only recruit when in Town/Castle that is not under siege.. or has been under siege last 6 hours.
Lords pay gold for units, here is the list straight from script, Hard Campaign makes things so much cheaper.
    reinforcement_cost_easy = 600
    reinforcement_cost_moderate = 450
    reinforcement_cost_hard = 300

Lords Number of recruitment.
Easy = 0-1 per day
Normal = 1 per day
Hard = 1-2 per day
Marshal = +1 Per day

Reinforcement Swadia A : 5-10 Swadian Recruits ; 2-4 Swadian Militia.
Reinforcement Swadia B : 3-6 Swadian Footman ; 2-4 Swadian Skrimisher.
Reinforcement Swadia C : 2-4 Swadian Men At Arms ; 1-2 Swadian Crossbowman.

Reinforcement Vaegir A : 5-10 Vaegir Recruits ; 2-4 Vaegir Footman.
Reinforcement Vaegir B : 2-4 Vaegir Veteran ; 2-4 Vaegir Skirmisher ; 1-2 Vaegir Footman.
Reinforcement Vaegir C :2-3 Vaegir Horseman ; 1-2 Vaegir Infantry.

Reinforcement Khergit A : 3-5 Khergit Tribesman ; 4-9 Khergit Skirmisher.
Reinforcement Khergit B : 2-4 Khergit Horseman ; 2-4 Khergit Horse Archer ; 1-2 Khergit Skirmisher.
Reinforcement Khergit C : 2-4 Khergit Horseman ; 2-3 Khergit Veteran Horse Archer.

Reinforcement Nord A : 5-10 Nord Footman ; 2-4 Nord Recruit.
Reinforcement Nord B : 2-5 Nord Huntsman ; 2-3 Nord Archer ; 1-2 Nord Footman.
Reinforcement Nord C : 3-5 Nord Warrior.

Reinforcement Rhodok A : 5-10 Rhodok Tribesman ; 2-4 Rhodok Spearman.
Reinforcement Rhodok B : 3-6 Rhodok Crossbowman ; 2-4 Rhodok Trained Crossbowman.
Reinforcement Rhodok C : 2-3 Rhodok Vetern Spearman ; 1-2 Rhodok Veteran Corssbowman.

Reinforcement Sarranid A : 5-10 Sarranid Recruit ; 2-4 Sarranid Footman.
Reinforcement Sarranid B : 2-4 Sarranid Skirmisher; 2-3 Sarranid Veteran Footman ; 1-3 Sarranid Footman.
Reinforcement Sarranid C : 3-5 Sarranid Horseman.

Lord have limited amount of money... straight from script again... as mentioned above it costs and here is where it subtracts the money and checks if they got enough money to pay for it.
    (gt, ":hiring_budget", ":reinforcement_cost"),     
    (val_sub, ":cur_wealth", ":reinforcement_cost"),
Lords always gain 750 money each week.
Marshall/King always gain 1750 money each week.
And then it is "Fief" income added.

From this link
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,128730.0.
Read it by yourself.
 
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