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Rhodoks step up

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Old One-Eye

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
My new low-level guy and his merry men (and women) hired on as a merc for the Sarranids. I had a gang of 25 troops, mainly very low-level light cav (companions, manhunters and a handful of caravan guards) and decided to help out two Sarranid armies against two Rhodok armies. Map was rolling grassland, clear skies and we had 220 troops vs 260. I replayed that battle 8 or 9 times, the result was always the same. The Rhodoks completely annihilated the Sarranids while taking heavy losses. They would charge headfirst into Sarranid lines and win, march in an orderly line and win, rush toward rushing Sarranids and win. Their last reinforcement wave would chase down the remnants of the Sarranids. From my observations I would say that they won as soon as they've killed off the Sarranid cavalry, of which there was a lot. Their trump card were, not surprisingly, sharpshooters and sergeants which completely obliterated anything but the Mameluks, which they had to attrit down.
I didn't have much of a force to command but without my plucky 20 light cav I'm willing to bet they wouldn't even have needed their last reinforcement wave. I was in light armor on a Sarranid horse without a lance or shield, just a bow and only averaged about 20 kills.
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
Meanwhile


Custom battle, Swadian all cavalry force vs Rhodok all infantry force.

200 vs 200.


Swadia win, with 12 losses vs 200 Rhodok losses.


Teeheehee :smile:



(btw yes, it occurred to me that AI sends in cavalry separately which I forgot at first)
 
Yoshi Murasaki said:
Custom battle, Swadian all cavalry force vs Rhodok all infantry force.

Well, nice, except that whenever I saw Swadians they are mainly on foot, with around 10-25% cavalry.
And those armies are getting raped by Rhodoks, same with Sarranids. You can say: "Rhodok spearmen are crap on legs, veteran spearman are even worse..." and so on, and so on, and so on. But Rhodok lords (at least for me) seem to get top tier troops out of the Rhodokien Abyss. I saw Graveth with 130 sharpshooters and 70 sergeants, it took two Swadian campaigns to finally knock him down.
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
Do not look here said:
But Rhodok lords (at least for me) seem to get top tier troops out of the Rhodokien Abyss. I saw Graveth with 130 sharpshooters and 70 sergeants

Yea, Rhodok lords get nothing but top troops out of thin air.

Which is why I said it's all about dicing when AI fights. AI throws a dice and woah look at that, 100 Sergeants! Never mind that Rhodok Lord would never get any Sergeants the way they fight - their spearmen line would just die in charges.

That's the reason I find these campaign faction comparisons a bit silly. It's all pre-programmed to keep some fake balance.



 
At least it's not all that bad for me, all factions, thanks to that "fake balance" at least always something is happening... till some point. First with Sarranids, then with Vaegirs, I left Khergits with one city. For two years they didn't managed to do much except of taking one castle and losing it after few days of not-giving-a-****-about-defending-it-ing.

Thing with Rhodoks was kind of different - firstly they became powerful, left Swadia with two cities and three castles (altought Swadia, just like Swadia, never had war only with Rhodoks) even despite of me trying to bite them as a Swadian mercenary (altought once again, I'm not too skilled, as I prefer playing for relax). And then suddenly, out of nowhere, they lost almost everything. Now they sit in last two cities, hoping for mercy, I think.

But still, the same how autocalculating battles are cheated for Rhodoks' favour in the open field, they are punished in the sieges. Under rain of bolts most of you troops will not even say hello to the glaive somewhere up there, while their castles seem to fall pretty easily when player isn't joining the siege.
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
Actually, castle sieges with default battle size are a lot different I think from huge battle size some people play on. But yea, autocalculate makes siege easy.


Cavalry is just not my thing, and I like challenge so I'm starting a new game with Rhodoks again. I'm just a bit sad that I can't exploit what they are good at - sieges. If I win 5 castles AI just takes them back because my faction can't guard these castles that fast, and AI respawns with full garrisons.

I think I'll take 1 castle somewhere, and just attack lords over and over again until I have them captured. That will do the trick. But I guess I'll have to go rebel in that case - otherwise my king Graveth will make peace and all captured lords will be released.
 

yugop

Knight
You'll also have to tweak your game a bit, because by default, lords have a very slim chance of being captured. And a very high chance of escaping unless you have a prisoner tower :razz:.
Anyway, I did understand the spearmen/sergeants are meant to break the cavalry charge while they're peppered with bolts, but I can do that with any troop, and most troops will do a lot better than spearmen : they are poorly armored, and can't do much with their weapons. Or better yet, use a mercenary/companion cavarly unit to meet the charge, then retreat. No really, I can't think of any advantage for using the rhodok infantry line at all other than recruitment convenience/roleplaying.
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
I don't like tweaks much, and I'm quite satisfied with lord capture rate. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems tjat odds matter. If it's tougher battle chance seems to be higher. But maybe it's just a coincidence. Prisoner tower is a must of course.
 

Schemer

I wish Rhodoks were good. They're Scottish like me, except they suck.

I can't stand playing as them, as much as I'd love to. How does anybody manage it? They're good at sieges, sure, but go into a field battle and you're all dead.
 

fragonard

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Schemer said:
I can't stand playing as them, as much as I'd love to. How does anybody manage it?
Well, as noted several times in this and similar threads, an all sharpshooter army is the only realistic way, unfortunately. It still works for me, though; there's something about the Rhodoks that's satisfying even with (or maybe because of) their troop tree problems.
 

Schemer

fragonard said:
Schemer said:
I can't stand playing as them, as much as I'd love to. How does anybody manage it?
Well, as noted several times in this and similar threads, an all sharpshooter army is the only realistic way, unfortunately. It still works for me, though; there's something about the Rhodoks that's satisfying even with (or maybe because of) their troop tree problems.
Sharpshooters are footmen. You'll spend half an hour running to the other end of the battle map, especially if TweakMB is used to increase map sizes to help stop routed enemies. How would this be coped with? I'm spoiled from full cavalry armies getting ahead in no time at all.

Didn't their armour get reduced in 1.130, too? They just have green shirts now.
 

fragonard

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Sharpies have fairly high athletics so they're not as slow as most infantry. In my games, Deshavi has 7+ pathfinding so it's not too bad.  I understand that in the latest patch, their armor has been reduced slightly but they have mail underneath. I'm keeping an eye on that in my latest game; early experience hasn't been bad.
 

Gabeed

Master Knight
fragonard said:
Schemer said:
I can't stand playing as them, as much as I'd love to. How does anybody manage it?
Well, as noted several times in this and similar threads, an all sharpshooter army is the only realistic way, unfortunately. It still works for me, though; there's something about the Rhodoks that's satisfying even with (or maybe because of) their troop tree problems.

I can go half Rhodok crossbowmen, half Rhodok infantry.
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
Well Rodok are not bad in game. They are certainly not worst than Nords. Sure sergeant is bit weaker than huscarl but their sharpshooters balance that out. You will also not encounter all cavalry AI formation so their inability to use polearms is not that critical.

Still, spear armed troops of Rodock should be more effective against cavalry, currently they are not much better than any other foot troops. Of course, they would need to start actually equipping their spears and claives. In my custom battles I did not see single Rodock trooper using polearm ...which is kind of odd. But that is related to general inability of AI to use proper weapon in their inventory against proper opponent. It is not just problem of Rodock. Another problem is that AI is not designed to fight in formation and is also not exclusive problem of Rodock.
 

Bears

Veteran
Rhodoks... Bad? I don't think so. My first character was a Nord. We were dominating the other factions such as Swadians and Vaegirs. After we took Dhirim and got it for myself, things was about to go bad. All of the surrounding factions declared war on us. Only the beaten Swadians stayed back. Soon they started to siege Dhirim. After one faction and another i managed to survive and defend the town, but many of my warriors fell after every battle. The towns defences started to weaken. As the Rhodoks started to loot my villages and Vaegirs raided my most precious fief- Jayek. Soon the Rhodoks came marching back at Dhirim for another assault. Their sergeants and sharpshooters came rushing in, instantly killing my soldiers at the walls. Dhirim was finally lost but i left the town before the second assault. I wanted revenge and started to venture to the Rhodokian highlands. I started to raid Pagundur but after a while a Rhodok count showed up and attacked me with the remaining farmers and peasants. I had an army of 20 Huscarls(They were hard to get back in the day at 1.113) and more high tier soldiers. As i charged to the village my men started to fell, taking many of them with me. I was defeated... After that battle i am a count of the Rhodoks... and always will be.
 

Yoshi Murasaki

Knight at Arms
sirinan said:
Coincidence, I'm afraid. Capture chance doesn't depend on battle odds. It's a flat 30% chance.

Ah thanks, but that's pretty good chance.

Schemer said:
I can't stand playing as them, as much as I'd love to. How does anybody manage it? They're good at sieges, sure, but go into a field battle and you're all dead.

Heavy use of terrain.

And I'm probably the only one who thinks that Rhodoks are not that much better in siege. Maybe because I don't play at huge battle size because I want Tactics skill to be of some use. That, and I noticed at least in some castles that AI is very bad at positioning. In the last castle I defended, the position of my Rhodok sharpshooters was so horrible and useless that I had no benefit from their ranged abilities, so to make some use of them I just made them Hold Position at the top of the ladders.

Sharpshooters are footmen. You'll spend half an hour running to the other end of the battle map

Even worse, you camp until enemy comes to you. Reading a book IRL is a must while playing Rhodoks, while they shoot and shoot.. :smile:

Gabeed said:
I can go half Rhodok crossbowmen, half Rhodok infantry.

For roleplaying or benefit? If for benefit, of what kind?

If I don't go all sharpshooter I lose tactical advantage that is the only point of playing with Rhodoks. More crossbowmen means less troops reach us.
Although I should state that I join in melee along with companions.

Bears said:
Rhodoks... Bad? I don't think so. My first character was a Nord. We were dominating the other factions such as Swadians and Vaegirs. After we took Dhirim..

That's a nice story. Let me simplify it:

"Rhodoks bad? No, because in my game:
AI vs AI > dice roll > AI Rhodok %higher dice number% than faction X > Rhodoks win
Me vs AI > me using no tactic but frontal charge > Rhodoks win
So as you can see, Rhodoks beat Nords if higher dice roll and if player uses no tactic with nord infantry."



Meanwhile:

Great tactician Yoshi commands a battalion of valiant Nord troops. He encounters Rhodoks and battle begins. Awesome Rhodok sharpshooters prepare to pepper Nord infantry but alas! Yoshi hid his troops behind the hill and without line of sight Rhodok sharpshooters lost their ranged ability. As Rhodoks get closer Yoshi commands his troops to charge, and melee battle begins. Nords decimate Rhodok sharpshooters and then notice that someone is tickling them. Oh the spearmen! For giggles Nord infantry sheaths weapons and Kicks and Fists spearmen to death.
 

Bears

Veteran
Maybe they wont attack and will wait for you to charge them first :wink:. But i guess your right about that...  Specially the spearman part haha  :grin:. But the Rhodoks will also do some work if you use their sharpshooters on a hill. And if you mix them with huscarls... Well, you just have to win. I dont know why, but i'm afraid to have the Rhodoks and Nords as my enemy.
 

gnawid

Regular
Schemer said:
I wish Rhodoks were good. They're Scottish like me, except they suck.

I can't stand playing as them, as much as I'd love to. How does anybody manage it? They're good at sieges, sure, but go into a field battle and you're all dead.

With 1/5 infantry 4/5 crossbow and use of terrain. Even slight hills that appear behind the reinforcement zone can be used. I generally told my crossbowmen to stand in a line on the slope with a group of spearmen x4 stand closer farther ahead. I tell my crossbowmen to hold fire. Then I wait until the enemy sends his army all the way across the map to my side of the field, causing his cavalry to go way in front of their infantry and ranged. Then I press "Fire at Will" when they're in range, enjoy the sound of 100 pickaxes being swapped out for crossbows, and watch the rapeage that follows.
 

Da-V-Man

Squire
Yoshi Murasaki said:
Meanwhile:

Great tactician Yoshi commands...

That's a nice story. Let me simplify it:

"Rhodoks good? No, because in my game:
Me vs AI Rhodoks> I load up on Huscarls and nothing else, and then charge at a party of mixed tier AI controlled troops> I win
My opinion vs your opinion> it's mine so yours is wrong> Rhodoks suck
So as you can see, Nords beats Rhodoks because I controlled them so they must not be good."

I continually see you complain and complain about the Rhodoks, as if they were armed with nothing but their finger nails, and as if everyone in the world is having the same problem as you. If you really hate them that much you can

A) Play as another faction.
B) Turn the difficulty slider down because you can't handle the big-boy damage to your troops.
C) Play a mod.

I fail to see the same difficulties you face in your games when playing with the Rhodoks, and so do many others. We're not here to debate with your emotions, so don't fire them up when someone's opinion differs from yours.
 
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