RaW:Previews+News

[EFREM]

Don't taunt Rgcotl with helmets 
We have an excellent book describing Italian made helmets which is free to check and download:
The bronze Italian helmet Volume I
The bronze Italian helmet Volume II
So we have some good information about the Etrusco-Thracian, the Negau and the Italo-Chalkidian helmet which might all fit our timeframe (definitely so for the Etrusco-Thracian, highly possible for the Negau which evolution persisted until the 4th century and might have continued production beyond and maybe some more open versions of the Italo-Chalkidian).

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wow! that's some really serious material 
very interesting study! for sure it would be too much a challenge to make these for one person, but hey isn't Rgcotl  part of your team? it's the team leader too!!!
this is pure epicness and to dare a little seems legit

 

[rgcotl]

time for preview

Spoiler: Etrusco_thracian_type3_helmet

Spoiler: joke

 

[tenerife_boy]

very good job bro!

 

[Jarvisimo]

Nice work!!

Can't help but notice his eyes are wonky though.

Spoiler

 

[rgcotl]

well it is not eddited warband face
they looks not the best, but i have no wishes to do new ones

 

[Jarvisimo]

Ah, right, gotcha.

 

[EFREM]

time for preview

Spoiler: Etrusco_thracian_type3_helmet

Spoiler: joke

your works are always Amazing Master! how can you do? DAT leather! the ear!

but I dare you this time Rgcotl! I want to be an Etruscan or a Celt person really out of shape 
let's see what you got!
(not the sort of horrendous balloon I've seen in Brytenwalda, I want a warrior of good health, not a thin!)

 

[rgcotl]

unlucky helmet tooked me one day more than than i would ever wanted

Spoiler: etrusco-thracian-type4

well some new stuffs from me

Spoiler: type5 samno-attic helmet

Spoiler: carthaginian_scalethorax

Spoiler: and some combined units

Carthaginian sacredband

and new glorious look of samnite meddix

 

[Slytacular]

time for preview
etruscan cardiophylax armors

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Very good looking armors, but I question the realism of this "soldier." I'm not questioning just you, rgcotl, but other historical-based games that portray Classical-era fighters with little but expensive armor such as Rome 2 Total War.

Bronze is an expensive alloy that is some how described by modern artists as a common sight in the Classical times, but rarely used and found in Medieval time periods? Which is even more weird to see a dude run around bare naked except for a chunk of decorated bronze attached to his head, chest, and knee? Any sane practical fighter would want as much coverage on the body to not expose themselves to an easy wound and blood loss.

If this guy has this much bronze to wear, why couldn't he sell some of it for some cured leather armor, a horse, and a shield?

 

[rgcotl]

that particular half nude warrior you are mention is a gladiator
it is believed that gladiatorical games roman tooked from the etruscans

and here is an reference for for it

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details such as ornaments has been used all the times
all of cardios i did has historical reference
and ~40-60% of the ancient items were found of this age are decorated in one way or another
as for other games: most them showing us undecorated things
but i am such person that i have no fun to do a thing with has no decoration
so we better exluding undecorated things (for not having to much items)

 

[Slytacular]

that particular half nude warrior you are mention is a gladiator
it is believed that gladiatorical games roman tooked from the etruscans

and here is an reference for for it

Spoiler

details such as ornaments has been used all the times
all of cardios i did has historical reference
and ~40-60% of the ancient items were found of this age are decorated in one way or another
as for other games: most them showing us undecorated things
but i am such person that i have no fun to do a thing with has no decoration
so we better exluding undecorated things (for not having to much items)

Well the 40-60% of the ancient items found would be worth keeping around this long if they were decorated, right? I'm not complaining about whether you detail the armour or not. I'm just thinking in the first-person perspective of that naked loin-cloth dude who would be living in the classical era.

You didn't specify if that picture of the Etruscan charioteer was for show or war either. Alike to the gladiator games, it could've been just for show and games while armor and weapons for war would be more practical. Maybe the Romans took that showy fashion from the Etruscans to be showy and fashionable for the gladiators in the death arenas? For example, an ancient Greek potter would decorate his vase with heroic pictures of showy naked hoplites when in reality there is good evidence that hoplites wore body armor in war.

Where do you get that picture from anyways?

 

[KickingJoub]

He specifically stated that they were all gladiator stuff.

that particular half nude warrior you are mention is a gladiator
it is believed that gladiatorical games roman tooked from the etruscans
and here is an reference for for it

Spoiler

So please, let's stop mixing together war and gladiator games. Not to mention a poorer soldier would want to protect their vital organs (located in the chest and stomach area) and as such would likely eschew protection to other parts of their body. Also always, always remember that the single most common weapon in human history is the spear. A stabbing, not a cutting weapon, meaning that such defences are more useful than against the, sadly more common, view of swords clashing.

 

[rgcotl]

well things like leather armors you mention before was quite rare in the etruscans equipment

things like cardios were one of the first armors etruscans started to use, and in 3th century we believe circle form cardiophylax were still in use for lower class warriors

warriors in the ancient probably havent much things to choose
if we speek about samnites i remember it was something like you go war or you will be sacrificed for the gods

so you go fight or you you die even sooner

how the armors has looked like ? well that is what we are doing in the mod...

while decorated thing can surevive longer period than not decorated?
the answer is simple
let us say your grandfather had decorated and not decorated armor
the time has changed but you need to go war and you need to make new armor so you take your gradfathers armor melt it and get new shiny armor of the current time...
decorated things always had way higer value than not decorated things

 

[Slytacular]

He specifically stated that they were all gladiator stuff.

that particular half nude warrior you are mention is a gladiator
it is believed that gladiatorical games roman tooked from the etruscans
and here is an reference for for it

Spoiler

So please, let's stop mixing together war and gladiator games. Not to mention a poorer soldier would want to protect their vital organs (located in the chest and stomach area) and as such would likely eschew protection to other parts of their body. Also always, always remember that the single most common weapon in human history is the spear. A stabbing, not a cutting weapon, meaning that such defences are more useful than against the, sadly more common, view of swords clashing.

Ah, I didn't catch the part about the armor being only for the gladiator. Is this something only seen in the tournaments in RaW?

I'm trying to be careful to not pretend to know whether something is fact or false in the Classical Era, and instead to question the purpose and practical usage of equipment in order to draw a better imagination of what it was like back then. I just wanted to bug and bother Rgcotl about it, and I hope he doesn't mind me too much.

I mean to target the attention to Early Roman troops like the Hastati who are portrayed to wear these chunks of bronze over a shirt.

Spoiler

EDIT: Rgcotl, was there no large wildlife or domestic animals in the area that could produce leather?

 

[rgcotl]

rome2 is not the best historical source

but yes a lot of armors inside were covered wth something soft (especially if was covered on the nude body)
armor outers had covers with something

animal skins were used to for clothing
but as i mention it was not something what is proved that etruscans used thems

 

[Slytacular]

rome2 is not the best historical source

but yes a lot of armors inside were covered wth something soft (especially if was covered on the nude body)
armor outers had covers with something

animal skins were used to for clothing
but as i mention it was not something what is proved that etruscans used thems

I would agree it is more believable to display something that is preserved to modern day rather than imagine something used that would rapidly decay over time. I wouldn't think any practical material would be ignored if it comes to arming one self. Leather can be created hard and be suitable for wearing to war. I also do not mean that Rome 2 is a historical source of information. I actually believe Rome 2 has a good amount of fantasy to it.

 

[Seek n Destroy]

That particular armor with no clothes is for ceremonial purposes "gladiatorial" fights if you wish.
Most materials like linen and leather won't survive two millennia and the little that survives is not enough to advance anything about how things were. If it wasn't for the large amounts of pottery, coins, statues, mosaics and paintings it would have been impossible to determine that the linothorax ever existed. Bronze on the other hand is more resilient so that's what we end up finding in higher quantities in terms of archaeological references and that's what we end up making in higher quantity in the mod too unless we find evidence of the contrary. Most often than not the ancient depictions (vases, paintings, etc...) which are mostly for commercial purposes or decorative will end up representing scenes of heroic individual combat or the highest classes of the army in important battles. Little we can advance on what the lower classes would be using from this source of information. Some documents on military reforms, trainings and such survive but that's quite rare. Some information survived about the Athenian reforms after the Chaeronea defeat (which we fought in the mod and it was a crushing defeat for Athens), the recruits were issued a spear and a shield from the state and the rest was what they could afford and they were sent to the Piraios fortress for training.

So let's take the Etruscans as an example:

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That's roughly most of the art they produced around the 3rd century B.C. from this we can have a rough idea about what a nobleman of that era could afford in terms of equipment yet we can't tell anything about the lowest classes. The little information we have is a short text from Titus Livius that mentions a Roman spy infiltrating Etruria disguised as a lower class warrior carrying with him some javelins and a curved dagger. But nothing indicates what material they used apart from that, if they used leather armors, etc... So with what we have we assume the poorest classes would afford a simple cloth or at best a simple chestplate.

 

[rgcotl]

Spoiler: negau_helmet_type2

Spoiler: some_etruscans_with_negau_helmet

 

[matmohair1]

amazing, the nose ring looks interesting too!

 

[rgcotl]

Spoiler: reference

https://www.dropbox.com/s/atav8t5z8z228xk/tumblr_m37yteCUyi1qdpxqeo1_1280.jpg

well i had this reference for etruscan beard mask it has an ring, so i added to but in reallity it is hard to say should it be here or not