[NW][M]Iron Europe - WWI Mod (RELEASED)

[GoblinOverlord]

I look forward to the Austro-Hungarian Bosniaks! 

 

[DanyEle]

Harry_ , quit arguing what people suggest or say in this thread.....The people that is making this mod will decide whether it is possible for the mod......not you.
WWI anime style.......Well the uniforms only.

Spoiler

Really cute pics!

 

[gokiller]

Harry_ please GTFO. 

Your not doing anything better with telling him to "GTFO" there also nicer way's to say something around that. So incase you don't have anything better to say against him. You might aswell just not answer to him at all. Seriously people behave a bit... If you don't like his comments, then please just ignore it instead of commenting on it like a complete ret****.

Seriously..  Just had to put my word here. 

 

[Oposum]

Seriosly Jesus Christ
STFU your self rightous essays are long.....

Harry_ please GTFO. 

For some reason being right and having a point in this thread is considered failure while spamming it with retarded ****  (like 2 people quoted above) and generally showing pitiful amount of intelligence is considered good behavior.

Anyway, I can't seem to find information about how ranged weapons will be treated, mainly regarding accuracy. While rifles used in WW 1 had range around 1.400 m, usually effective range was 600 m. Since battlefields in Warband are usually smaller than that and soldiers who used the rifles were quite untrained (well, after first 6-12 months after the start most of the regular soldiers were dead/crippled). Putting high accuracy would mean that melee would happen rarely. However, if rifles could be shot on several accuracies (higher accuracy = much slower rate of fire) it could still keep guns effective at longer ranges while keeping melee a viable option. IIRC rate of fire of those rifles were around 12 shots per min when used by highly trained soldiers while recruits would get around 6-8 shots per min which could be low enough to not make melee obsolete.
Second thing I was wondering about, is how grenades would be realized? Most of the other mods just made grenades do area damage, which usually made them horribly overpowered. However, if it could be possible for grenades to have almost non-existant area damage, but to release hailstorm of shrapnel it would probably be much better (and realistic, since anti-personel grenades deliver damage thru shrapnel, not explosion).

 

[BetaKnight]

So Rigadoon when will you show emh the stuff?

 

[djogloc02]

How is the progress of the mod?? Very slow, slow, average, above average, high, very high, excellent...

And don't forget the food variety, leadership and recent events.

Spoiler

Well I don't know what you consider slow or fast. But I think we're doing alright. We're certainly working slower than the first few weeks, but that seems to be the case for all new mods. So work is still going strong and we're making good progress.

It's good to know that you ignored my LOL , the mod is really strong 

 

[Harry_]

Anyway, I can't seem to find information about how ranged weapons will be treated, mainly regarding accuracy. While rifles used in WW 1 had range around 1.400 m, usually effective range was 600 m. Since battlefields in Warband are usually smaller than that and soldiers who used the rifles were quite untrained (well, after first 6-12 months after the start most of the regular soldiers were dead/crippled). Putting high accuracy would mean that melee would happen rarely. However, if rifles could be shot on several accuracies (higher accuracy = much slower rate of fire) it could still keep guns effective at longer ranges while keeping melee a viable option. IIRC rate of fire of those rifles were around 12 shots per min when used by highly trained soldiers while recruits would get around 6-8 shots per min which could be low enough to not make melee obsolete.

From my point of view this isnt something that needs to be worried about. in the open field melee wont happen like it does in NW - but it shouldnt really. We have trenches where the officers with pistols and guys with bayonets or clubs or spades will come into their own. This way officers are incentivised to lead successful charges (so they can make their way into an environment they excel in) but they will need the riflemen and machinegunners to facilitate their advance. Machineguns will be a concern as they should be. You're right that 600m was considered average engagement range, as it is today. I imagine azrooh has coded a totally ground-up firing system. I hope there is something implemented where moving around will reduce your effective range to like 50m until you stay still for a while and "focus" on your target. Ghost recon (the old one) did this really well for rocket weapons, and sniper rifles.

Either way, i think it will be a good thing to let riflemen excel at their roles and officers at theirs. If they are reliant on each other they will be more likely to work as a team, so keeping the riflemen at a slight disadvantage in close trench fighting will incentivise them to stay with an officer even if theyre not in the same clan or whatever.

Second thing I was wondering about, is how grenades would be realized? Most of the other mods just made grenades do area damage, which usually made them horribly overpowered. However, if it could be possible for grenades to have almost non-existant area damage, but to release hailstorm of shrapnel it would probably be much better (and realistic, since anti-personel grenades deliver damage thru shrapnel, not explosion).

It's a complicated issue in any game, really- very few do it right. The problem with shrapnel-based grenades in games is that they dont take into account overpressure effects. So while they work convincingly "in the field" - the fact that youd be able to throw one into a house or trench and someone in that house or trench might survive is a huge bummer. Obviously simulating this kind of thing is pretty hard in a game. There are complex things you could do to figure it out, maybe checking distance of the grenade to certain static objects before multiplying area damage, or shooting a ray or two to test if the thing is in an enclosed area. Sadly i dont think this is really possible in MnB... But grenades will have their most common use in clearing trenches, so for that reason I would hope to see them have powerful but short radius damage, as well as maybe some shrapnel - i dunno. That + the ability to throw them back would be pretty nice

Anyway i suppose i have a question for the devs. Have you considered communication lines? I mean i can only assume a lot of the game mechanics at this point but if youre allowing officers to call in artillery anywhere, it would be neat if they needed to be near a functioning "telegraph" bunker. These could be supported by a series of wire static props which can be destroyed. That way you could check if any of them are broken and this would isolate certain trenches/capture zones from telegraphs, thus disallowing them from calling in artillery from that place.

Sappers/pioneers could cut the wires manually, or likewise repair them, as well as artillery having a chance of destroying them if they are hit. By most accounts this was a common problem in trench warfare.

 

[Azrooh]

Disagreeing with people while remaining civil is this awesome thing that well-balanced people can do. It lets ideas be refined and allows everyone's opinions to be heard. If you disagree with Harry, make a logical reason as to why you disagree with him, and 'because he's Harry and I don't like him' is not a logical reason. You're all looking horribly immature.

Just wanted to throw my two cents in as it's gotten rather heated. Back to lurking for me.

 

[TORN9000]

I wonder when regiments for this mod will pop up...

 

[Oposum]

From my point of view this isnt something that needs to be worried about. in the open field melee wont happen like it does in NW - but it shouldnt really. We have trenches where the officers with pistols and guys with bayonets or clubs or spades will come into their own. This way officers are incentivised to lead successful charges (so they can make their way into an environment they excel in) but they will need the riflemen and machinegunners to facilitate their advance. Machineguns will be a concern as they should be. You're right that 600m was considered average engagement range, as it is today. I imagine azrooh has coded a totally ground-up firing system. I hope there is something implemented where moving around will reduce your effective range to like 50m until you stay still for a while and "focus" on your target. Ghost recon (the old one) did this really well for rocket weapons, and sniper rifles.

Either way, i think it will be a good thing to let riflemen excel at their roles and officers at theirs. If they are reliant on each other they will be more likely to work as a team, so keeping the riflemen at a slight disadvantage in close trench fighting will incentivise them to stay with an officer even if theyre not in the same clan or whatever.

I agree that melee shouldn't be common outside of trenches, but with high enough firerate of rifles it could easily become better solution for fighting in the trenches (if trenches are made really zig-zagging to avoid enfilade fire and rifles got some small random firing delay it could end up quite fine).
I think that melee should still play quite important part of the mod, mostly since if melee isn't important there's great many other engines which would do better job at depicting the WW 1 shootouts.

It's a complicated issue in any game, really- very few do it right. The problem with shrapnel-based grenades in games is that they dont take into account overpressure effects. So while they work convincingly "in the field" - the fact that youd be able to throw one into a house or trench and someone in that house or trench might survive is a huge bummer. Obviously simulating this kind of thing is pretty hard in a game. There are complex things you could do to figure it out, maybe checking distance of the grenade to certain static objects before multiplying area damage, or shooting a ray or two to test if the thing is in an enclosed area. Sadly i dont think this is really possible in MnB... But grenades will have their most common use in clearing trenches, so for that reason I would hope to see them have powerful but short radius damage, as well as maybe some shrapnel - i dunno. That + the ability to throw them back would be pretty nice

As far as I know, concussion grenades were not used in WW 1, while fragmentation grenades had dangerous overpressure radius less than 2 meters (in enclosed spaces, where usually shrapnel would rip you apart anyway).
Maybe adding 1 meter radius of area damage coupled with 40 howitzer-like shrapnel?
Ability to throw back grenades would be nice touch, but since warband engine is somewhat clumsy with picking up items it would probably require more work than it's worth.

 

[5arge]

Ability to throw back grenades would be nice touch, but since warband engine is somewhat clumsy with picking up items it would probably require more work than it's worth.

I'm sure Azrooh could code that.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

Spoiler

From my point of view this isnt something that needs to be worried about. in the open field melee wont happen like it does in NW - but it shouldnt really. We have trenches where the officers with pistols and guys with bayonets or clubs or spades will come into their own. This way officers are incentivised to lead successful charges (so they can make their way into an environment they excel in) but they will need the riflemen and machinegunners to facilitate their advance. Machineguns will be a concern as they should be. You're right that 600m was considered average engagement range, as it is today. I imagine azrooh has coded a totally ground-up firing system. I hope there is something implemented where moving around will reduce your effective range to like 50m until you stay still for a while and "focus" on your target. Ghost recon (the old one) did this really well for rocket weapons, and sniper rifles.

Either way, i think it will be a good thing to let riflemen excel at their roles and officers at theirs. If they are reliant on each other they will be more likely to work as a team, so keeping the riflemen at a slight disadvantage in close trench fighting will incentivise them to stay with an officer even if theyre not in the same clan or whatever.

I agree that melee shouldn't be common outside of trenches, but with high enough firerate of rifles it could easily become better solution for fighting in the trenches (if trenches are made really zig-zagging to avoid enfilade fire and rifles got some small random firing delay it could end up quite fine).
I think that melee should still play quite important part of the mod, mostly since if melee isn't important there's great many other engines which would do better job at depicting the WW 1 shootouts.

It's a complicated issue in any game, really- very few do it right. The problem with shrapnel-based grenades in games is that they dont take into account overpressure effects. So while they work convincingly "in the field" - the fact that youd be able to throw one into a house or trench and someone in that house or trench might survive is a huge bummer. Obviously simulating this kind of thing is pretty hard in a game. There are complex things you could do to figure it out, maybe checking distance of the grenade to certain static objects before multiplying area damage, or shooting a ray or two to test if the thing is in an enclosed area. Sadly i dont think this is really possible in MnB... But grenades will have their most common use in clearing trenches, so for that reason I would hope to see them have powerful but short radius damage, as well as maybe some shrapnel - i dunno. That + the ability to throw them back would be pretty nice

As far as I know, concussion grenades were not used in WW 1, while fragmentation grenades had dangerous overpressure radius less than 2 meters (in enclosed spaces, where usually shrapnel would rip you apart anyway).
Maybe adding 1 meter radius of area damage coupled with 40 howitzer-like shrapnel?
Ability to throw back grenades would be nice touch, but since warband engine is somewhat clumsy with picking up items it would probably require more work than it's worth.

What would be cool to see would be to have the ability to jump on top of the grenades, therefore mostly shielding your buddies (at least from the shrapnel). I'm not sure how exactly things happened in the trenches, but imo, I think this ability would really add an extra touch to the mood of the war and the sacrifice real heroes had to make for the greater good.

I know it won't be easy to implement properly, but it's just a thought. 

 

[Harry_]

I agree that melee shouldn't be common outside of trenches, but with high enough firerate of rifles it could easily become better solution for fighting in the trenches (if trenches are made really zig-zagging to avoid enfilade fire and rifles got some small random firing delay it could end up quite fine).
I think that melee should still play quite important part of the mod, mostly since if melee isn't important there's great many other engines which would do better job at depicting the WW 1 shootouts.

Yeah, historically the trenches would make a kind of square-wave pattern for that exact reason. You raise a fair point about melee being WB's strength - I'm certain it will play a disproportionately high part even if we didnt nerf it tbh, cause of the map size limit and comparitive lack of lead in the air.
I get the feeling though, that due to warband's good melee handling, rifles will never be able to compete with melee and pistols. As a melee weapon theyd be harder to manuever in the crampt spaces, and as a firearm... Sure, they fire a lot faster than a musket, but in an ideal case a pistol will fire as quickly as you can pull the trigger (the actual cyclic rate of most pistols would probably be well over 1000 rpm - oh what a shame that a sear keeps them from achieving their full potential, right?  ) So we have to think relative. This will play like a whole new game if it's done right - a guy with a lee enfield would wipe out an entire squad of musketmen, and musketmen are what we're used to. it's time to start thinking in hundreds of rounds per minute rather than in tens, and a semiautomatic will be able to blast a rifleman 4 or 5 times easilly before he manages to chamber a fresh round.

I might seem oddly purist on this issue - but the way i see it if you start "balancing" things before youre establish through testing that they need to be balanced, you can compromise a project. Balancing things usually awakens our "how did it work in other games" reaction and go for the easiest option. Constraining yourself to reality at first can result in much more unique and believable gameplay. If something seems OP, and you've given it close to real characteristics - chances are it was OP in real life too - and chances are there was some tactic or technology developed to counter it (cause OP weapons dont result in 4 year wars - they result in massacre). It provokes you to look that kind of thing up and think of ways to implement totally unique ideas into a game.

As far as I know, concussion grenades were not used in WW 1, while fragmentation grenades had dangerous overpressure radius less than 2 meters (in enclosed spaces, where usually shrapnel would rip you apart anyway).
Maybe adding 1 meter radius of area damage coupled with 40 howitzer-like shrapnel?

2 metres even in an enclosed space? that seems a little low to me but i can't prove you wrong so we'll use that number for now.
But yeah, i would definitely say kill radius as well as shrapnel. My main concern was what sometimes happens in NW - a howitzer shell landing practically ON a guy and not killing him. Im not totally sure if this is just a lag issue, but i've wondered if it was because the fragments are cast out in "truly random" directions - so the distribution in directions they get sent could be biased to one side, lowering the lethality depending which side you're lucky enough to be standing on. On a real fragmenting charge the shrapnel would be cast out evenly in all directions, as i gather you know, which probably cant be easilly guaranteed in MP code.

Ability to throw back grenades would be nice touch, but since warband engine is somewhat clumsy with picking up items it would probably require more work than it's worth.

I had the same thought myself. It really depends how they handle grenades. If a static grenade could be replaced by a prop with a very large "clickable" area (in the way that doors and such are done in vanilla) it could work more intuitively. I havent messed with those features though, so im not sure how well it would work.

 

[Rigadoon]

So Rigadoon when will you show emh the stuff?

Soon. There is some other stuff that is almost done that we'd like to sure. In the future please contact me through steam or TW pm for this kind of thing. 

 

[BetaKnight]

Yeah sorry Steam is bugging... PM is kinda weird these days.... and some buttons for me on the forum is kinda weird that it wont click

 

[XtremeBadger]

Really looking forward to this mod, all of the work looks brilliant so far.

 

[Rigadoon]

Ability to throw back grenades would be nice touch, but since warband engine is somewhat clumsy with picking up items it would probably require more work than it's worth.

I had the same thought myself. It really depends how they handle grenades. If a static grenade could be replaced by a prop with a very large "clickable" area (in the way that doors and such are done in vanilla) it could work more intuitively. I havent messed with those features though, so im not sure how well it would work.

If it is possible to have grenades that can be thrown back, shouldn't it be hard to do so? Having to fumble around for it before it blows up seems good to me, it'll be scary as hell. Making it too easy to throw back would make grenades more dangerous to the throwers than to the defenders.

Your idea of communication lines is pretty interesting and would indeed be a great addition to the mod. But as always, implementing this kind of complex stuff depends on whether or not Azrooh is able and wants to do it.

 

[Harry_]

If it is possible to have grenades that can be thrown back, shouldn't it be hard to do so? Having to fumble around for it before it blows up seems good to me, it'll be scary as hell. Making it too easy to throw back would make grenades more dangerous to the throwers than to the defenders.

Yeah, youre right. I'm kind of just imagining a situation like trying to pick up arrows in MnB, with such a small object it could get tricky. But who knows, test it first i guess. I'm probably just thinking of the arma engine and how precise you need to be to interact with objects on the ground in that. Now that i think of it MnB wasnt quite so bad

 

[rusky87]

Really looking forward to this mod, all of the work looks brilliant so far.

Well hello Hoopy! Long time no see!

 

[lord_olafson]

Reading this thread, I am quite amazed about Harrys ideas/comments. I wrote a WW1 game concept quite some time ago (not for warband, in general, for any engine), and it sounds like Harry wrote it. He has exactly the same ideas as I do....

And I do not really understand this "Harry GTFO" comments, while harry seems to be one of the very few persons in this thread who actually contribute to this mod.