My disappointment with Bannerlords current state

[islesofurth]

Before i get into anything yes i am aware that it is in development and i am aware that everything seen is not necessarily how it will be upon release.
I also work in the industry and i know that most key things at this point in development don't change so late.


What i expected:
Basically i just expected it to be like MBW but with proper sieges, pathing, etc. Larger battles & 4k Graphics for those who can handle it.


What i discovered:
The Story and Lore seems to be nicely decked out.
Particle effects & lighting seem decent enough.
Models have serious clipping issues. I personally hate games with clipping when it is such an easy fix and developers only ignore it to try and save some time and memory.
Square trees...really.
Basically anywhere you look all you see is low poly meshes with textures and bump maps. This is ridiculous even if you are going to have 1000+ you can still give them all high poly meshes and only render those nearby.
I wont even bother to mention the A.I.

What Taleworlds should have done is hired someone to work on their engine and then hire a few more programmers to work the code so they could optimize the use of their memory without having to reduce quality.
I must say i am very upset with the state of the game as it is clear that taleworlds has decided to keep quality down very low as an amatures version of optimization.

But not to worry, mods will save the day as they always do.
And i'm sure taleworlds are betting on it.

 

[NPC99]

IMO TW have correctly interpreted the requirements of their player base by prioritising increased battle sizes. I am happy with the graphics quality on display and wouldn’t want it improved at the expense of battle sizes.

 

[DanAngleland]

Before i get into anything yes i am aware that it is in development and i am aware that everything seen is not necessarily how it will be upon release.
I also work in the industry and i know that most key things at this point in development don't change so late.


What i expected:
Basically i just expected it to be like MBW but with proper sieges, pathing, etc. Larger battles & 4k Graphics for those who can handle it.


What i discovered:
The Story and Lore seems to be nicely decked out.
Particle effects & lighting seem decent enough.
Models have serious clipping issues. I personally hate games with clipping when it is such an easy fix and developers only ignore it to try and save some time and memory.
Square trees...really.
Basically anywhere you look all you see is low poly meshes with textures and bump maps. This is ridiculous even if you are going to have 1000+ you can still give them all high poly meshes and only render those nearby.
I wont even bother to mention the A.I.

What Taleworlds should have done is hired someone to work on their engine and then hire a few more programmers to work the code so they could optimize the use of their memory without having to reduce quality.
I must say i am very upset with the state of the game as it is clear that taleworlds has decided to keep quality down very low as an amatures version of optimization.

But not to worry, mods will save the day as they always do.
And i'm sure taleworlds are betting on it.

While there have been some quite glaring clipping issues in a few screenshots, for the most part the clipping instances I've noticed have been fairly innocuous and only noticeable after a bit of scrutiny of the screenshot. While that is not ideal and I hope to see some improvement, I can't remember seeing any clipping while watching videos (there will of course have been some, and I may actually have noticed it at the time, but it hasn't stuck in my head if I have), so it can't be that bad. Moreover, I can't think of many games with third person avatars adorned with various objects (weapons, clothing, scabbards etc.) that can conflict with each other that don't have any clipping issues.

When you say they should have hired programmers to work on code and others to work on the engine...how does that differ from greatly expanding the size of the company, which they have done? Surely it is extremely likely that they brought in new talent to work in these areas of the game? While stylistically I can find fault in some of the armours, generally the game looks good to me from a technical stand point (not compared to modern big-name games, but I wouldn't expect that). I wouldn't count on modders being able to significantly improve the aesthetics of the game, it looks pretty solid to me. In fact as far as M&B and Warband go, all I've seen is sticking plasters and wonky work arounds to try and address the shortcomings of native, and a few moderately successful attempts to improve the aesthetics of Native such as Gutefiuk's improved landscapes mod (I may have gotten his and the mod's names wrong, so long since I used it); I question this idea that modding radically improves the game (except in the great variety and refreshing change a total conversion mod can bring, but I think we are talking about problems being fixed by modders). Besides which, the emphasis Taleworlds are putting on getting the game right and eradicating bugs suggests they don't want to leave anything for modders to have to 'fix'.

Your dismissive mention of the AI begs the question; which game has done it better? I can't think of one that really compares to M&B, which is one problem in answering this question. Battles look good to me; yes in at least one of the siege videos there were moments when the pathfinding and AI movement left a lot to be desired, but most games don't put their AI in such situations in the first place (inside buildings, lots of NPCs, individual NPCs having responsibility of deciding which individual to attack and route to take). People often talk about bad AI (another of my favourite series, ARMA, often gets criticised for dodgy behaviour inside buildings, but again that is an example of a game doing something just about no other does; in ARMA's case that is combining large scale outdoor combat with indoor CQB in realistically proportioned buildings, many with tight stairwells), but what examples are there of good AI, and more importantly what examples are there of good AI relevant to a game like M&B, with all its individual soldiers and large scale battles?

 

[NPC99]

Before i get into anything yes i am aware that it is in development and i am aware that everything seen is not necessarily how it will be upon release.
I also work in the industry and i know that most key things at this point in development don't change so late.


What i expected:
Basically i just expected it to be like MBW but with proper sieges, pathing, etc. Larger battles & 4k Graphics for those who can handle it.


What i discovered:
The Story and Lore seems to be nicely decked out.
Particle effects & lighting seem decent enough.
Models have serious clipping issues. I personally hate games with clipping when it is such an easy fix and developers only ignore it to try and save some time and memory.
Square trees...really.
Basically anywhere you look all you see is low poly meshes with textures and bump maps. This is ridiculous even if you are going to have 1000+ you can still give them all high poly meshes and only render those nearby.
I wont even bother to mention the A.I.

What Taleworlds should have done is hired someone to work on their engine and then hire a few more programmers to work the code so they could optimize the use of their memory without having to reduce quality.
I must say i am very upset with the state of the game as it is clear that taleworlds has decided to keep quality down very low as an amatures version of optimization.

But not to worry, mods will save the day as they always do.
And i'm sure taleworlds are betting on it.

While there have been some quite glaring clipping issues in a few screenshots, for the most part the clipping instances I've noticed have been fairly innocuous and only noticeable after a bit of scrutiny of the screenshot. While that is not ideal and I hope to see some improvement, I can't remember seeing any clipping while watching videos (there will of course have been some, and I may actually have noticed it at the time, but it hasn't stuck in my head if I have), so it can't be that bad. Moreover, I can't think of many games with third person avatars adorned with various objects (weapons, clothing, scabbards etc.) that can conflict with each other that don't have any clipping issues.

When you say they should have hired programmers to work on code and others to work on the engine...how does that differ from greatly expanding the size of the company, which they have done? Surely it is extremely likely that they brought in new talent to work in these areas of the game? While stylistically I can find fault in some of the armours, generally the game looks good to me from a technical stand point (not compared to modern big-name games, but I wouldn't expect that). I wouldn't count on modders being able to significantly improve the aesthetics of the game, it looks pretty solid to me. In fact as far as M&B and Warband go, all I've seen is sticking plasters and wonky work arounds to try and address the shortcomings of native, and a few moderately successful attempts to improve the aesthetics of Native such as Gutefiuk's improved landscapes mod (I may have gotten his and the mod's names wrong, so long since I used it); I question this idea that modding radically improves the game (except in the great variety and refreshing change a total conversion mod can bring, but I think we are talking about problems being fixed by modders). Besides which, the emphasis Taleworlds are putting on getting the game right and eradicating bugs suggests they don't want to leave anything for modders to have to 'fix'.

Your dismissive mention of the AI begs the question; which game has done it better? I can't think of one that really compares to M&B, which is one problem in answering this question. Battles look good to me; yes in at least one of the siege videos there were moments when the pathfinding and AI movement left a lot to be desired, but most games don't put their AI in such situations in the first place (inside buildings, lots of NPCs, individual NPCs having responsibility of deciding which individual to attack and route to take). People often talk about bad AI (another of my favourite series, ARMA, often gets criticised for dodgy behaviour inside buildings, but again that is an example of a game doing something just about no other does; in ARMA's case that is combining large scale outdoor combat with indoor CQB in realistically proportioned buildings, many with tight stairwells), but what examples are there of good AI, and more importantly what examples are there of good AI relevant to a game like M&B, with all its individual soldiers and large scale battles?

+1 well said. 

 

[KhergitLancer80]

I am fine with graphical lacks except for the clipping issues but I think taleworlds will handle it in a way.
For the trees I was actually fine with what I have seen but square trees ? What does that mean ?

About the AI:
Really ?
I think Talewords was really assertive with their AI.
From what I have seen from the gameplay videos I was happy with it too I mean yeah 3 years ago in the siege video we saw a bad pathfinding problem but like I said it was 3 years ago and we havent seen a big problem with the AI in any of the shared videos.

Can you share your experience that gave you the conclusion of AI is bad ? Because that is probably what matters most for everyone including me.

Btw I may be wrong but a few months ago Callum or a dev said sth like they changed sth and they were redoing all the graphics or sth but that can be my imagination.I mean I remember sth like they changed sth that will make the game look worse but at the end of it will be way better.

 

[wormydowg]

Good graphics is a gimmick that most triple a companies try and capitalize on. You can still have a beautiful game with pixelated art, look at Starbound. The only important thing that taleworlds needs to keep in mind is consistency and atmosphere, which imo they have done pretty well on. In all there videos, they have captured a nice feel to the universe they are trying to make.

Clipping bothers me too, but like Dan said

I can't think of many games with third person avatars adorned with various objects (weapons, clothing, scabbards etc.) that can conflict with each other that don't have any clipping issues.

.

 

[KhergitLancer80]

Also just wanted to add:
If battles were as large as 4k it would hurt the game.
Allow me to explain.
I was actually worried about how it would decrease the importance of players combat skills as TW will seriously increase the number of participants in a battle.

Now even in WB in big battles with 126 men it still mostly depends on whose army has more men and troop quality&morale.
Actually even strategy doesnt play a big part most of the time.It is mostly all about morale and troop quality when numbers are that high.

So if we get to fight with 2000 against 2000 the game will basically turn into Total War so yeah you got the point.

 

[NPC99]

Also just wanted to add:
If battles were as large as 4k it would hurt the game.
Allow me to explain.
I was actually worried about how it would decrease the importance of players combat skills as TW will seriously increase the number of participants in a battle.

Now even in WB in big battles with 126 men it still mostly depends on whose army has more men and troop quality&morale.
Actually even strategy doesnt play a big part most of the time.It is mostly all about morale and troop quality when numbers are that high.

So if we get to fight with 2000 against 2000 the game will basically turn into Total War so yeah you got the point.

The opening post’s quote about 4k related to graphics quality, not battle size. I’d love 2,000 vs 2,000 battles, but that is way beyond what TW are promising, so extremely unlikely.

 

[KhergitLancer80]

Oh right, I feel ashamed lol but my point stands.
I dont want a Total War from Taleworlds.
Because in that scale, it is what M&B will turn into.
Only difference will be is that it will be centralised on a single character rather than a faction.

 

[vicwiz007]

I did not even notice all the things you disliked. Really, who cares about a low texture tree when youre in the middle of a 600+ man battle? If your only complaints are nit picky graphical things then there is really no problem at all. Look at warband's graphics and all the people who love/loved it.

 

[Gibbylimmer]

All of the videos shown were from 6 months ago. Calm your tits. The stuff shown in those videos isn't the final product.

 

[KhergitLancer80]

All of the videos shown were from 6 months ago. Calm your tits. The stuff shown in those videos isn't the final product.

I think the guy is kinda beta tester since he says AI is bad and the last gameplay video where we saw a bad AI example was three years ago a pathfinding glitch.

Also can someone explain to me what clipping did we see ?
I am not sure if I know what that does mean.

 

[vicwiz007]

I think the guy is kinda beta tester since he says AI is bad and the last gameplay video where we saw a bad AI example was three years ago a pathfinding glitch.

Also can someone explain to me what clipping did we see ?
I am not sure if I know what that does mean.

There is no way this guy is a beta tester. There is some clipping with armor pieces and other things like your sword going through the horse youre riding. Nothing too dramatic.
Here is a small example. There are some worse examples like a shoulder pad getting stuck behind a neck, but as you can see it really doesnt affect gameplay and isnt noticeable, especially in battle.

edit- found the shoulder pad

 

[Narlan]

but as you can see it really doesnt affect gameplay and isnt noticeable, especially in battle.

Lol, like it would be fine... it's just some clipping. But I agree in some extend, if the game is captivating, good and variated, clipping will not prevent me from enjoying the game. But no, a spear running through the leg, it's not fine.

 

[vicwiz007]

but as you can see it really doesnt affect gameplay and isnt noticeable, especially in battle.

Lol, like it would be fine... it's just some clipping. But I agree in some extend, if the game is captivating, good and variated, clipping will not prevent me from enjoying the game. But no, a spear running through the leg, it's not fine.

Its not going through the leg, its going through the armor. I dont understand what your first sentence meant, but i can agree that stuff like the shoulder pad thing is annoying but its rare. and the spear going through the armor, i really dont see how it is a big deal. Its hardly noticeable to begin with, let alone when you are actually playing the game and enjoying it.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Clipping is almost unavoidable in a game where you change outfits and wield a bunch of weapons. It's not an "easy fix" given how many of the animations will include weapons held close to the body. In real life weapons will push fabric or armour out of the way, but in a game that's usually not possible.

Basically anywhere you look all you see is low poly meshes with textures and bump maps. This is ridiculous even if you are going to have 1000+ you can still give them all high poly meshes and only render those nearby.

High poly meshes are never used in games, assuming by high poly you mean "most of the visible detail is depicted with geometry". It's not efficient and high poly meshes look terrible with real time rendering systems because that's not what they're designed for.
There's not much point in increasing the polygon count of what we've seen already

 

[Lord Brutus]

So basically, all his disappointments are delusions based upon misconceptions.

 

[Stan546]

Is he trollin'?

 

[KhergitLancer80]

Is he trollin'?

Maybe he is hired by the devs of kingdom come deliverance or more likely for honor's developers 

 

[Al_Mansur]

I did not even notice all the things you disliked. Really, who cares about a low texture tree when youre in the middle of a 600+ man battle? If your only complaints are nit picky graphical things then there is really no problem at all. Look at warband's graphics and all the people who love/loved it.

There is not only huge battles in M&B.