Multiplayer Issues, not satisfied with the balance.

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bubble said:
Spear/Pike/Lance distance test:

I did test it with bots (unfortunately their combat is really weak even on highest settings hehe)  and saw similar problems like in multiplayer, there exist a certain huge dead zone. You can only hit the opponent at a certain distance and if the player comes only a bit closer to you your weapon wont do any dmg even if you aim for the body, which is not quiete logically in certain situations.

Speaking exclusively of the 1h spear + shield combo:

The spear is my favorite weapon, specifically the cheapest/shortest spear. I think it has a steep learning curve due to its misleading animation/hitbox whatever. I am not good at writing tutorials, but there is something you could try that might help you become proficient in this style.

Familiarize yourself with the kick+slash technique. Using a 1h sword/axe, kick your opponent and then land an attack before your opponent can block again. Once you are comfortable with this, try it with the spear. If you can land a thrust before you opponent can block again, you may have learned an important aspect of spear fighting.

The whole motion is like an act of habit for me, and I may not give useful directions but I can try. After landing my kick, I click and hold Left Mouse Button for the shortest moment before releasing. In the meantime, I think I am moving back, and possibly to the right to give my thrust more room to extend before contact. The most important part: as I release LMB, I turn sharply to the left, it seems like dragging my spear tip left across their torso. If you are a US player, I'd be happy to try to show you in game. And this lesson is just meant to teach you how to aim the spear/pike. It seems to me, you need to "turn" or "spin" your thrust when you are at close range in order to land a hit. The spear really sucks at 1on1 duels, so switch to an alternate weapon for that purpose.

I don't know how to begin to try to describe my tactics against cav. I suppose you want to keep your character right in front of the horses body and release your spear/pike thrust at the earliest possible moment so it is fully extended as the cav rides into the point. Of course the cav will turn as they get within lance range so your spear will miss the horse but your face gets hit with the lance. So you are trying to move unexpectedly, use terrain, or otherwise deceive your opponent; do whatever you need to do so that you are infront of that horse's face with your spear thrust at full extension when in range. It is very important that you aim at the horse's chest/head. Rarely do I make the mistake of thrusting too soon, often do I get trampled because I was too late. Once the horse rears up from your thrust, back up, and thrust at the horse's knees so your thrust doesn't bounce off the rider's shield. Try to land two more thrusts on the horse's knees after it rears up. Of course, you can go straight for thrusting the rider if you want, but I find it more risky and tend to only try for it when the rider is distracted fighting someone else or I just feel confident in that particular situation. If the horse dies, either thrust the rider before he can get up then switch to your alternate weapon, or switch to your alt weap then try to land the free attack before the rider can block.

Try to find a buddy, an archer perhaps, to "protect" him. (Let the archer think you are there to protect him when you are really using him to bait the cav to come meet with your spear) Or if you see your teammates engaged in a melee, consider using your spear to watch their backs to ward off and intercept enemy cav. You just have to evaluate the situation to see what is your best course of action. Do your teammates need you to keep cav off their backs while they melee? or do they need you to come help with their melee? but then you need to stay out of your teammates' way and not stab them. Don't let cav "pull" you around. Don't be a bot and aggro on that frustrating cav and chase him all over the place. You are on foot so you control where the face-off will take place. (Does that make sense?) So stay close to your buddies, go where they go. Let the archers kill the horses, sometimes your threatening presence next to that archer will prevent any cav from ever approaching. Don't move around a lot when on guard duty, you want predictable movement so the archer is comfortable shooting on either side of you without shooting you. If there are not 2+ cav opponents threatening you, then it can be a good idea to put your spear/pike away until the cav begins their approach.

Other misc. things I do are rebind kick to the thumb button on my mouse, "M3" or "M4," don't remember exactly. Easier for me to use, but if I have a "Oh Sh!t" moment I have accidentally clicked kick and died as a result. I rebind "view outfit" to Ctrl, so I can push it while running and move my camera to check my back for opponents. [Off topic Rant]The alternative to using this would be for me to spin in circles often, which would look incredibly silly and prevent me from blocking the archer shooting at me and make "sprinting" somewhat impossible. Some players claim you can use sound to prevent being hit from behind, but while I can use sound to accurately determine enemy locations in every other game I play, it doesn't work for me in Warband. I won't argue with people, but for me it seems like the horse outside of my field of view has an "on/off" audio, either I hear the horse but I have no idea from what direction other than not where I am looking. Or I don't hear the horse at all until the last moment and then it is too late. So using view outfit is necessary for me not to die from behind. I also just try to keep a tab on the # of cav I see and where I last saw them last so I have an idea when and where to expect them to come next, but in the midst of an intense melee you can lose track of these things.

I apologize for the wall of text, I didn't intend to write so much. Hope this may be helpful, and if not, at least on topic :grin:
 
bubble said:
Iam not sure if the multiplayer part of this game really delivers. I have my feeling that weapon balance and combat features are a bit off.

I noticed that the forum offers really nice combat guides but the practice on servers is looking different. Most of the combat is looking not like in some of such training videos with tricks n tips for gameplay. In fact its all about dmg output and length of the weapon, aswell speed. For example take the Axe 2H, you can literally one shot people doesnt matter what kind of armor they have, there are similar weapons and are almost same deadly. If you take a 1h sword with a shield, such weapons will break the shield often in 2-3 hits besides the chance to jump behind the enemy and kill him from the side. Iam sure there are some really good players out there who can master blocking with the shield and parry with the weapon, but the general fight doesnt work like that. Most just faceroll and succeed with it due to the massive dmg output.

I see also some issues with spears/lances for infantry units, sometimes my weapon hits and sometimes not at all. I think there is a bug maybe or just a too huge dead zone, i counted it so many times that my weapon just does nothing even if a aim precisly. This happens also on the horse if you fight the next horseman close to you.......really strange and should get a fix. In comparison to the similar length of axe or blade weapons the dmg output is really weak.

The armor in general seems not to work that great vs high dmg weapons, you are still a one shot kill also vs horsemans with their lance. An arrow takes 1/3 of your life doesnt matter if you have great protections, only 1h swords seem to do a lot less dmg. 1h Axes are in my expirience the higher dmg dealer, i die often in 2 hits only with medium armor.

The game has a lot of potential but iam not really that satisfied with the current multiplay balance and weapon issues, hope to see some patches for this.

I know this is old but just had to say this:  Man, this isn't Elder Scrolls or some game where just because you are the main character you can take 20 hits before actually dying.  This is Warband where, just like in real life if someone shot you with an arrow you would be pretty much screwed unless you had some serious gothic plate or something.  If you don't like such realism in terms of sustainable damage then this game is not for you.  Concerning the heavy 2h weapons, they have there weaknesses which I could go at lengths to describe but its better if you just learn the game.
 
I've recently made an outline for, and implemented in a module, changes to the balance of the game; specifically from a multiplayer perspective.
1500 proficiency per faction. 500 per class
50 skill points per faction

Average Distribution:
Inf = 20 skill points
range=15 skill points
cav = 15 skill points

Swadia: Heavy cavalry, weak xbow, heavy inf. Holy Roman

Vaegir: Attack archers, medium inf, medium cav. Rus

Khergits: Light Cavalry, heavy cav. Mongol

Nords: Attack Inf, defense archers, light cav. Scandinavian

Rhodok: Defense Inf/crossbows, light cav. multi-culture

Sarranids: Medium Cavalry, light inf, versatile archers. Egyptian

_______________________________________________
BODY ARMOUR:
Protection|Cost
0-10= 1 GoldPerPoint
11-15= 2 GPP
16-19= 4 GPP
20-25= 8 GPP
26-34= 16 GPP
35-45= 20 GPP
46-49= 40 GPP
50= 50 GPP
51-54= 60 GPP
55+ = 80 GPP
________________________________________________
Head armour weight = 1/10 of protection
Body armour weight = 1/2 of protection if over 25 protection, 1/4 if under 25
Leg armour weight = 1/10 of protection

Head armour price per point defense
0-10 armour= 1 GPP
11-19= 2 GPP
20-29= 3 GPP
30-39= 6 GPP
40-45= 10 GPP
46+= 20 GPP

Leg armour price per point defense
0-9 armour= 1 GPP
10-15 armour= 5 GPP
16-25 armour= 10 GPP
26-29 armour= 20 GPP
30+ armour= 30 GPP

Hand Armour & weight
.1 weight per point of defense, 100 gold cost per point of defense.
The balance is looking very good, and very similar to native at the same time.
Instead of me making a new thread about it, and regarding the topic name, I post this here, and would very much appreciate your thoughts and comments on the listed changes. Also, any additions regarding how I might balance the weapons would be very nice.
 
John7 said:
:lol: :lol: :lol:


So thats why they call him far seeker!

LoL sorry I was actually looking for some info to give evidence to my hypothesis that cut damage has bonus against unarmoured, pierce against chainmail, and blunt against plate, but I found this thread and well, you see what happened.  I'm argumentative.
 
Lethwin Far Seeker said:
John7 said:
:lol: :lol: :lol:


So thats why they call him far seeker!

LoL sorry I was actually looking for some info to give evidence to my hypothesis that cut damage has bonus against unarmoured, pierce against chainmail, and blunt against plate, but I found this thread and well, you see what happened.  I'm argumentative.
Plate and mail are not classified differently; the only difference between armours is the protection value.

Different damage types are reduced by different amounts (cutting takes 100% of the reduction, piercing is like 75% or something) and receive no bonuses based on armour or lack thereof.
 
brognar said:
Lethwin Far Seeker said:
John7 said:
:lol: :lol: :lol:


So thats why they call him far seeker!

LoL sorry I was actually looking for some info to give evidence to my hypothesis that cut damage has bonus against unarmoured, pierce against chainmail, and blunt against plate, but I found this thread and well, you see what happened.  I'm argumentative.
Plate and mail are not classified differently; the only difference between armours is the protection value.

Different damage types are reduced by different amounts (cutting takes 100% of the reduction, piercing is like 75% or something) and receive no bonuses based on armour or lack thereof.

Ok is there any armour\blunt effect?
 
Blunt is less likely to bounce, can knock down, and ignores 25% of armour.
Pierce ignores a higher percent of the armour if I recall...

And Cut gets none of those bonuses. It simply often has the highest level of damage, making it most effective against light enemies.
 
Rallix said:
Blunt is less likely to bounce, can knock down, and ignores 25% of armour.
Pierce ignores a higher percent of the armour if I recall...

And Cut gets none of those bonuses. It simply often has the highest level of damage, making it most effective against light enemies.

Ok thank you so much for this info guys.  I have been playing M&B since the early beta of the original and I have always wondered. No more!
 
Rallix said:
I've recently made an outline for, and implemented in a module, changes to the balance of the game; specifically from a multiplayer perspective.
1500 proficiency per faction. 500 per class
50 skill points per faction

Average Distribution:
Inf = 20 skill points
range=15 skill points
cav = 15 skill points

Swadia: Heavy cavalry, weak xbow, heavy inf. Holy Roman

Vaegir: Attack archers, medium inf, medium cav. Rus

Khergits: Light Cavalry, heavy cav. Mongol

Nords: Attack Inf, defense archers, light cav. Scandinavian

Rhodok: Defense Inf/crossbows, light cav. multi-culture

Sarranids: Medium Cavalry, light inf, versatile archers. Egyptian

_______________________________________________
BODY ARMOUR:
Protection|Cost
0-10= 1 GoldPerPoint
11-15= 2 GPP
16-19= 4 GPP
20-25= 8 GPP
26-34= 16 GPP
35-45= 20 GPP
46-49= 40 GPP
50= 50 GPP
51-54= 60 GPP
55+ = 80 GPP
________________________________________________
Head armour weight = 1/10 of protection
Body armour weight = 1/2 of protection if over 25 protection, 1/4 if under 25
Leg armour weight = 1/10 of protection

Head armour price per point defense
0-10 armour= 1 GPP
11-19= 2 GPP
20-29= 3 GPP
30-39= 6 GPP
40-45= 10 GPP
46+= 20 GPP

Leg armour price per point defense
0-9 armour= 1 GPP
10-15 armour= 5 GPP
16-25 armour= 10 GPP
26-29 armour= 20 GPP
30+ armour= 30 GPP

Hand Armour & weight
.1 weight per point of defense, 100 gold cost per point of defense.
The balance is looking very good, and very similar to native at the same time.
Instead of me making a new thread about it, and regarding the topic name, I post this here, and would very much appreciate your thoughts and comments on the listed changes. Also, any additions regarding how I might balance the weapons would be very nice.
Now can we get back to my other post? I don't want to have to make another thread.
 
Lethwin Far Seeker said:
LoL sorry I was actually looking for some info to give evidence to my hypothesis that cut damage has bonus against unarmoured, pierce against chainmail, and blunt against plate, but I found this thread and well, you see what happened.  I'm argumentative.

Quoting someone from 2 years ago is a  bit mean TBH, since what he/she said back then isn't necessarily representative of his/her current opinion. Especially when commenting such a volatile subject matter influenced by game patches and amount of time spent playing game.

Although it really hurts to leave posts I'd like to comment on in their graves.  :lol:
 
I also have a server running for this little modification, and a new version.
Edit: Apparently, the server WASN'T running. I've fixed that.
The server is of the same name as the mod.
 
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