Multiplayer Elephant In The Room. Khuzait Is Designed To Be Annoying To Play As And Annoying To Play Against, And Do Not Fit Into The Games Economy

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khuzait was already trash at release
They can just make rabble 10g cheaper. They complement their spear infantry. Require teamwork to fend off cav, which forces a team to balance rabble and spear infantry spawns. Allows players to spawn in quicker with more expensive units. Its fun to play. If they buff their club, they can act as anti heavy shock inf in cpt. Meanwhile a simple gold change wont impact cpt mode.
In 6v6 it is very hard to run both Rabble and spear inf at the same time. The Khuzait infantry as a whole is just so bad that you are pretty much allowed to run 3 inf maximum and still have any chance of winning. By running 3 inf, you are forced to only run 3 of any other class as well. The best thing about the factions is the archers, Khans Guard and HA. Most people are going to run either one of each or 2 of the same there. That leaves only 1 slot for a proper cav, despite cav on paper being the entire identity of the faction. Even if the inf have synergy with each other, they dont synergize with the rest of the faction.

Compare this to Battania, Sturgia or Aserai, who all have multiple inf choices that can operate both with each other and as a single independent entity.

Against factions like Sturgian and Battania, the Rabble can be 1 hit by many of the infantry axes. Its shield is so small that it is incredibly easy for archers to footshot. It cant take a spear with its shield to defend itself from cav. To me the rabble is worse than the peasant levy, because at least the levy has 2h and pickaxe to make it a damage dealer. I would much rather see it become a 100g unit with actual flexible options, like the Tribal Warrior from Aserai, than see it go even more all in on being "bad" and cheaper.

I just think its unfair for multiple Khuzait inf to be expected to work together just to not be terrible when no other faction has that baseline requirement.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
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In 6v6 it is very hard to run both Rabble and spear inf at the same time. The Khuzait infantry as a whole is just so bad that you are pretty much allowed to run 3 inf maximum and still have any chance of winning. By running 3 inf, you are forced to only run 3 of any other class as well. The best thing about the factions is the archers, Khans Guard and HA. Most people are going to run either one of each or 2 of the same there. That leaves only 1 slot for a proper cav, despite cav on paper being the entire identity of the faction. Even if the inf have synergy with each other, they dont synergize with the rest of the faction.

Compare this to Battania, Sturgia or Aserai, who all have multiple inf choices that can operate both with each other and as a single independent entity.

Against factions like Sturgian and Battania, the Rabble can be 1 hit by many of the infantry axes. Its shield is so small that it is incredibly easy for archers to footshot. It cant take a spear with its shield to defend itself from cav. To me the rabble is worse than the peasant levy, because at least the levy has 2h and pickaxe to make it a damage dealer. I would much rather see it become a 100g unit with actual flexible options, like the Tribal Warrior from Aserai, than see it go even more all in on being "bad" and cheaper.

I just think its unfair for multiple Khuzait inf to be expected to work together just to not be terrible when no other faction has that baseline requirement.
for it to deal damage it would need a very good 1h mace, and 80g for spawns

round1 : 2 rabble 1 spear
round1+: 1 rabble 2 spear

You can throw away your spear on other factions for the extra 1.4 ms.
 
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for it to deal damage it would need a very good 1h mace, and 80g for spawns

round1 : 2 rabble 1 spear
round1+: 1 rabble 2 spear

You can throw away your spear on other factions for the extra 1.4 ms.
Why would you get rid of your spear now. They are unironically very good against cav after the 1.5 fix. You can both stop them much more consistently. And jumping up and stabbing the rider does much more damage.

Heavy inf costing 160 gold means that you will be seeing a lot more light inf like Brigands and Wildlings on the field now. Maces are not as essential as they used to be, but are still a great option to have.

I’m just really attacked to the Hillman/Tribesman idea I layed out in the proposed patch notes of the OP. I think the current Khuzaits are just so fundamentally broken and unfun in terms of infantry that one of their 2 inf units needs an overhaul.
 

Virtuosho

Recruit
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Other than horse archer, what about Khuzait is on par with other factions. Please explain to me.
Spear infantry with mace is very effective heavy inf

Sickle/Shield rabble is a real decent unit in the right hands

Khan Guard is one of the strongest units in the game

Maybe east asia server just more talented player base
 
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Spear infantry with mace is very effective heavy inf
Maces are the currently bad in 1v1s due to hilt spam being viable again, along with glancing generally having been reduced on non AP weapons. Maces are slow enough that the devs have acknowledged it, and are adjusting their stats in the next patch. Im assuming that you are taking Improved armor instead of the shield or spear. Without improved armor the Armor for Spearman is even worse at 23. 23 is Equivalent to a wildling, which is both cheaper and faster.

Bear in mind that Khuzait infantry armor is between 20 to 30 armor lower than most other infantry, and therefore taking a mace against Khuzaits is not required. This will mean that most people are taking Swords or Axes, and will have an advantage in both reach and speed over your mace while still doing equivalent damage. Out of fairness to you I will compare the stats of other "Heavy" Infantry WITH the mace equipped unless a specific reason makes me not do that. (even though the Spearman is definitely not heavy. 32 armor is not that much, its 100% medium like the Wildling)

Spear Infantry with Mace stats:
Armor: 32
Speed: 77


Varyag with Heavy Axe stats. I took the Heavy Armor Perk because the Axe has 93 swing damage and will do about as much AP as the 45 damage Khuzait Mace
Armor: 48
Speed: 77

Oathsworn With Mace
Armor: 43
Speed: 79


Sergeant With Mace. Like the Varyag, Sergeant has access to a very good axe which does generally similar damage to armor, while also being amazing against light troops. The mace which sergeant has is also far superior to the Khuzait equivalent, being significantly faster and therefore less of a liability in 1v1 fights.
Armor: 37
Speed: 77

Legionary with Mace. The Pilum which empire gets has nearly identical stats to the default Khuzait spear that you receive when picking Heavy Armor, with the added bonus that it can be thrown for massive damage.
Speed: 77
Armor 41

As you can see, the Spearman is worse than every other Heavy Inf statistically. It has identical or worse maneuverability than all of them, while also having severely worse armor. The only other mainline inf I did not mention is the Tribal Warrior, which functions completely different because of the 3 spawns. And yes, I would much rather be able to spawn 3 times as tribal warrior than twice as the spearman.

And no, being cheaper than those choices does not matter. As I outlined in the OP, Khuzait infantry economy is very bad right now. Being able to spawn twice in the first round when you are at THAT MUCH of a disadvantage against heavy troops, while also not being much better than most factions medium option, is not large enough of an advantage to justify the absolutely horrible economic options in the later rounds.

Sickle/Shield rabble is a real decent unit in the right hands
Compared to what? Its statistically worse than every 3 spawn unit. Even Peasant Levy with improved armor and small shield is a straight stats upgrade. Clan Warrior, Tribal Warrior, Warrior, and Recruit are all MILES better due to either far superior armor or much better weapon options.

Khan Guard is one of the strongest units in the game
They are a straight downgrade to many other heavy archers, and better than none of them. They have slightly more armor and a slightly worse bow than the Aserai Veteran. They are worse than the Fiann in every possible way for obvious reasons. Empire Palatine Guard have the option to take an identical bow while having more armor and a better twohander simultaneously. The Sharpshooter has a crossbow and can literally 1 shot headshot the Khans Guard from the other side of the map.

The Khans Guard is also by far the slowest foot unit in the game, due to its incredibly slow 74 speed, along with its shield option being one of the heaviest.

I guess Khans Guard is alright in captain mode?

Maybe east asia server just more talented player base
There is a member of my competitive team currently living in Korea, and he has confirmed that the quality of play is lower there than it is here.

Youve also not addressed their terrible win rates in both Europe and NA. Surely if players in both EU and NA were all just terrible, they would also be terrible as the other factions? If that were the case we would see a comparable win rate for the worst faction regardless.
 
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Luci_Tide

Recruit
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Very good read and very apparent that Khuzait need some serious help if taleworlds want them to be even the slightest competitive.
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
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Just here to mention that maces seem to have a hidden hitbox making the weapon longer than it appears
 

Marquis de Montalban

Sergeant at Arms
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Kinda disappointing to have one of the few representatives of the East Asia community act this way to be honest. The forums (at least in the English section) are dominated by NA/EU voices, so commentary from our SA/OCE/EA brethren can possess a far greater impact by providing the viewpoint of their respective communities. Rather than contribute to the discussion at hand, you pull the same internet tactic that got old in 2006, by jumping in, saying everything discussed is wrong, and flaming the OP.
 
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Virtuosho

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Kinda disappointing to have one of the few representatives of the East Asia community act this way to be honest. The forums (at least in the English section) are dominated by NA/EU voices, so commentary from our SA/OCE/EA brethren can possess a far greater impact by providing the viewpoint of their respective communities. Rather than contribute to the discussion at hand, you pull the same internet tactic that got old in 2006, by jumping in, saying everything discussed is wrong, and flaming the OP.
I never said everything discussed is wrong, just what EdbdafsdnAdmiral says. Has no ****ing clue, would give up the game and cry in their bed all day if they ever played EA. Seems really really **** at the game, and writes 5000 word essays trying to convince themselves they're not just really ****, but instead just looks like that guy that blames the controller for their ineptitude, but like, goes on forums to complain that it's the controller, and keeps on going, for months on end, absolutely clueless that they're just ****house, starting to just feel sorry for them. Is there a block/ignore button?
 

Marquis de Montalban

Sergeant at Arms
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I never said everything discussed is wrong, just what EdbdafsdnAdmiral says. Has no ****ing clue, would give up the game and cry in their bed all day if they ever played EA. Seems really really **** at the game, and writes 5000 word essays trying to convince themselves they're not just really ****, but instead just looks like that guy that blames the controller for their ineptitude, but like, goes on forums to complain that it's the controller, and keeps on going, for months on end, absolutely clueless that they're just ****house.
So two points- one, you're continuing to make yourself look immature, rather than the OP. If you don't get why, its because, regardless of his opinion of the issue at hand, he's committed himself to discussing it rationally and reasonably pending an admin response.

Second, there's a relevant statement from NA that applies to this situation- "Facts don't care about your feelings". Ebdanian is not taking screenshots of his own games and saying "I'm doing bad muhh class is bad", which is what you're accusing him of doing. He's pulling statistics from the entire competitive communities of NA and EU to compare win rates, while utilizing the statistics TW itself provides. When matched up against this, no matter how strongly you may feel about the issue, your argument basically boils down to "well it feels fine to me", but you have yet to refute any of the assertions made in the OP.
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
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This has nothing to do with elephants anymore! Please keep to the OP.
 

Virtuosho

Recruit
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So two points- one, you're continuing to make yourself look immature, rather than the OP. If you don't get why, its because, regardless of his opinion of the issue at hand, he's committed himself to discussing it rationally and reasonably pending an admin response.

Second, there's a relevant statement from NA that applies to this situation- "Facts don't care about your feelings". Ebdanian is not taking screenshots of his own games and saying "I'm doing bad muhh class is bad", which is what you're accusing him of doing. He's pulling statistics from the entire competitive communities of NA and EU to compare win rates, while utilizing the statistics TW itself provides. When matched up against this, no matter how strongly you may feel about the issue, your argument basically boils down to "well it feels fine to me", but you have yet to refute any of the assertions made in the OP.
The guy wrote, actually wrote, this

" The Glaive, as I have already stated, is not very good in cav v cav"

He's ****ing terrible, has no idea. Not a single other person on the forum posts as often, or as incorrectly as this guy.
 

RCC_God

Knight
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I was playing bannerlord recently and eb is pretty good, one of the better players in Na rn according to NABB stats. I don’t really see your argument
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
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I was playing bannerlord recently and eb is pretty good, one of the better players in Na rn according to NABB stats. I don’t really see your argument
He didn't get the rank of admiral for no reason!
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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This discussion became sour and bitter, keep to the OP and stop insulting. Virtuosho, you're going in the right direction for a mute, cut it out, stop being overly aggressive and insulting.

Let's also not do another NA vs Asia vs EU vs World argument either.
 

CdJrcxx

Sergeant at Arms
NW
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The guy wrote, actually wrote, this

" The Glaive, as I have already stated, is not very good in cav v cav"

He's ****ing terrible, has no idea. Not a single other person on the forum posts as often, or as incorrectly as this guy.
For a guy named Virtuosho you sure do lack in certain virtues :lol:

Anyway, the arguments presented have very little to do with opinion they come from straight numbers and statistics and I'm confused how you can refute them. Sure Virtuosho, maybe when you play pub by yourself you do just fine as Khuzait but that's not anything that unique, the issue is against players of similar skill in teams that are working together in a competitive setting Khuzait is just worse... We can all know this without even playing them by just comparing their troop stats and equipment to the other factions. To top it off the tournament stats of both EU and NA highlight these issues and show that the faction is bad on paper and in practice. Please tell us the East Asian dominant strategy when playing Khuzait, maybe it will enlighten us.
 

Vick Tide

Recruit
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The problem with Khuzait is not that its too easy or too hard, but that you have to actively exploit the game to win. We all know horse archers have 1.43 accuracy in 1.5, which is probably changing soon. You have to hilt spam a mace and have ghost reach on it for you to get kills. You have to go rabble with a sling so you can out-missile enemy archers rather than go Khan's Guard. The glaive is a derelict weapon with how little damage it does versus other two handed polearms (in crush through). Khuzait needs a new class, that replaces ONE of the THREE cavalry classes.

My suggestion for the next patch? Let nomads have 80 walking speed. They will be able to dismount and act as a second medium tier infantry or stay mounted for better mobility. Imagine them as if they were dragoons. NW pog