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Mamlaz
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Meevar the Mighty said:
No.
Just, no.
Some peasants did starve, but taxation was the least likely reason for that.
Meevar the Mighty said:
I was talking about hostile armies marching through, not their own lord.
Also, peasants hardly lived on a knife's edge of their own lord, considering that the average lords retinue only had about 10-20 men, while the folk in the villages had one armed man per family(usually by law), meaning those dozen dudes would not even be able to enter a village of 100 people without being outnumbered by hardy dudes in war gear and loads of their buddies with work tools.
Meevar the Mighty said:
Ah, yes, a couple revolts over a period of numerous centuries spanning the entire continent of Europe, surely an image of constant upheaval
joei160.
Sergeant
Mamlaz said:
The main reason for starvation in the Middle Ages was famine and plagues affecting the crops. Taxation was harsh, but it permitted a tiny surplus of resources for the peasantry. It was this surplus that allowed the slow growth of commerce during all the Middle Ages.
Well seeing as you now have 2 sets of clothes, armour/non-armour (presumably), which by the looks of it you can set up yourself.
Might be able to do such a thing, though I don't know if they would still remove any kind of headwear if you go into a lord's hall out of "respect".
Might be able to do such a thing, though I don't know if they would still remove any kind of headwear if you go into a lord's hall out of "respect".
In that case you can just fill his capital city with gangs to crush his economy while filling your own pockets
Edit: Typing this has actually made me curious to what extend we will be able to "secretly" take revenge on someone we dislike by ruining his economy while not actually attacking him (for example with a lord from the same faction).
We know you can put in gangs and such and that if the lord knows they are yours he won't like you, but perhaps there will be a way to try and make it so that the lord doesn't know the gang belongs to you?
Would be pretty cool I guess.
Edit: Typing this has actually made me curious to what extend we will be able to "secretly" take revenge on someone we dislike by ruining his economy while not actually attacking him (for example with a lord from the same faction).
We know you can put in gangs and such and that if the lord knows they are yours he won't like you, but perhaps there will be a way to try and make it so that the lord doesn't know the gang belongs to you?
Would be pretty cool I guess.
SenorZorros said:
The article is talking about the 14th century and beyond, by which time, as I've said, peasants had it pretty easy, relative to their position in say, the 11th century. The article does mention though that
Which is the whole point. If they wanted to, nobles could seize whatever they wanted from the peasantry, who were well aware that their problems didn't stem from their immediate liege, but from the state of the realm and from their very birth into a society that prohibited them from having any friends in high places, while their oppressors necessarily had an immediate family in positions of power.
Mamlaz said:
I would say that if you pay enough tax to feed someone and then starve, the taxes can reasonably be blamed for your starvation. Early medieval peasants were subsistence farmers and didn't have reserves to weigh against crop failure. Even in the best of times, when food was relatively plentiful, they couldn't afford what we would consider a balanced diet. Working done explicitly to pay taxes might not have been the majority of their work, but it was the extra work beyond their capacity that made life much more difficult.
Mamlaz said:
Even if that were true, which it isn't by a long shot and we pretend for a moment that it was feasible for a village mob to overwhelm a lord and his retinue, to do so would be very much against the law, so participating would be a death sentence for everyone involved and for their dependants.
Mamlaz said:Ah, yes, a couple revolts over a period of numerous centuries spanning the entire continent of Europe, surely an image of constant upheaval
The point was all of the red boxes. When peasants did decide to rise up against their masters, they were almost always crushed. The few successful peasant rebellions in the medieval period in Europe occurred in the later part of the period, by which time many members of the lowest class were in fact very wealthy. Even with this being the case, the vast majority of even later medieval peasant revolts were bitter failures.
Mamlaz
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Meevar the Mighty said:
You just keep going at it...
I would say that the fact that Europe was at the time experiencing the biggest population boom it ever experienced until post WW2, I would say the peasantry was neither starving nor being oppressed nearly to the level you presume.
Meevar the Mighty said:
It is though, historian Michael Prestwich in his book Edward I states that even in the hostile environment in Wales, the average castle garrison a lord commanded was;
"In 1284 30 or 40 men to each was regarded as appropriate. In the rebellion of 1294-5 Harlech had twenty men, of whom two died during the siege, until reinforcements came from Ireland."
Other castles in less hostile areas had even less men, as few as 4-5.
You are utterly ignorant of the fact that the vast majority of the lords own armed men were not castle dweling rich pricks but freemen selected from those same villages you presume they oppressed.
Thus, if a lord wanted to go into a village to do some dirty business, he would have mighty issues doing so.
Meevar the Mighty said:
Alright, find me all those primary sources describing those evil lords going about their average day raping people and pillaging their own property.
I will wait.
Meevar the Mighty said:
The point is it rarely happened anywhere and had decades of time between them.
Meevar the Mighty said:
Nobody is denying that.
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