medium late game in 1.8

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froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
Naw nothing to do with each other, mex agreed with everyone that the game needed real diplomacy like alliances but it got rejected at the suggestions table by you know who. So we got what we got from what he could work with. Also the defection bug has nothing to do with trying to stop snowballing, it actually made it much worse as this patch returns to some crazy snowball levels we havent seen since first testing for snowballing.

You're assuming im believing this decision lies with Mexxico. My assertion is that higher brass than him saw and approved of his help with that one issue -and on a very PR level chalked that "worked things out with the community".

Ive seen this happen with other games and companys. Kind of like a bait and switch -if the outcry seems loudest with one isolated issue -treat it like your treatin the entire illness. But in the overall scheme of things -made zero difference in the enjoyment factor of the game. This game is literally 0.00% more fun post snowballing -you dig?
 

Sir Frederic

Recruit
Naw nothing to do with each other, mex agreed with everyone that the game needed real diplomacy like alliances but it got rejected at the suggestions table by you know who. So we got what we got from what he could work with. Also the defection bug has nothing to do with trying to stop snowballing, it actually made it much worse as this patch returns to some crazy snowball levels we havent seen since first testing for snowballing.
I was so mad at the game that my only decision was to play a new game again, great, I'm a hopeless sadist.

The game has been going on for 5 years, I was a mercenary with Caladog for a while and I ended up as a Raghaea mercenary. Somehow, the Kusait got into so many debts that now they are all very poor, their nobles are being captured by steppe bandits as if they were peasants lol, little by little they lose all their territory. Battania is also hanging by a thread, poor, mired in debt. Only the south and west empire is strong.

Something strange happened, I don't know if my character is relevant in the fact, but apart from the fact that I dedicate myself to making friends with everyone, letting nobles go after battles, I didn't accept being a vassal. At least 4 clans from the northern empire, with properties, emigrated to the southern empire. No clan has deserted from the south. The southern empire has currency devaluation, dangerous politics, but will it motivate? the south does not pay tribute to anyone, is what motivates? I found it very surprising. Of course I do not intend to become a vassal, knowing the game, 6 clans are going to leave the empire as soon as they become an effective part of it. But the behavior that a kingdom has while you are inside or outside of it, even if you are a mercenary, is notorious.

Ultimately, kingdoms collapse from their war debts from being harassed with one war after another. The kingdom that gets its enemies to pay tribute will eventually take everything.

It always seemed absurd to me to pay so much tribute for a declaration of peace, but when this tribute is forever and not temporary, any kingdom that is harassed by three other kingdoms with consecutive wars will lead to a snowball of unrecoverable poverty.
 

Blood Gryphon

Grandmaster Knight
WBVC
You're assuming im believing this decision lies with Mexxico. My assertion is that higher brass than him saw and approved of his help with that one issue -and on a very PR level chalked that "worked things out with the community".
I think your giving higher brass more credit than what really happen. They haven't given a **** about the community so i dont think fixing snowballing came from anywhere but mex actually giving a **** about the community, it was his area so he could actually change it.

Ive seen this happen with other games and companys. Kind of like a bait and switch -if the outcry seems loudest with one isolated issue -treat it like your treatin the entire illness. But in the overall scheme of things -made zero difference in the enjoyment factor of the game.
I understand what your saying but just dont think it was part of some pr plan so they didnt have to do anything else. The plan was already to not engage with the community so that we couldnt get mad about false promises and mex went out of his way to include us. I dont see how you came up with this conspiracy that mex trying to fix his area of code was somehow some pr stunt by tw. It was just a guy who was passionate about the game and disregarded his companies modus operandi, which honestly i think he took a hit socially for breaking the mold.
This game is literally 0.00% more fun post snowballing -you dig?
Objectively the game is more fun post snowballing, but i understand you assume maybe the game could have had bigger changes if the the focus wasnt on snowballing. Problem is snowballing was only being focused on by 1 guy whose only area of code was that. I know what you think would make the game more fun has nothing to do with the actual simulation of the game and has more to do with making the world actually alive which wasnt mex's area to begin with. I dont think because mex was working with the community it left everyone else off from working with the community, they were already told to keep their mouths shut and that they could only interact with us on their own time when they weren't getting paid.

Just my opinion tho.




@Sir Frederic Yep thats essentially the game loop right now, kingdoms will be normal for about the first 5 years because they all start out at average wealth and a big kingdom bank, but after the first few wars are decided and tributes start being paid the losers are on a downward spiral to bankruptcy. You lose one war and then every other kingdoms recognizes it can easily get tributes from you so they declare and get a massive tribute because the kingdom is even weaker when at war with multiple kingdoms. Sadly i dont have the data to say whether tribute is causing snowballing or if snowballing is causing the tribute. It could be maybe tributes are higher than they use to be so clans are being bankrupted to defeat faster or kingdoms are getting their asses handed to them and tributes are higher because of it. It might be the latter due to them slowing down the recruit leveling up, we use to have on average tier 3-4 easily recruitable from villages and towns but now its on average tier 1-2.
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
think your giving higher brass more credit than what really happen. They haven't given a **** about the community so i dont think fixing snowballing came from anywhere but mex actually giving a **** about the community, it was his area so he could actually change it.
Neither of us know for sure how they felt about it but if nothing else it gives them plausible deniability. And it was misplaced excitement on your end to conclude that we werent left with a still very mismanaged product. Bad game designed slightly fixed with more bad game design .
I understand what your saying but just dont think it was part of some pr plan so they didnt have to do anything else. The plan was already to not engage with the community so that we couldnt get mad about false promises and mex went out of his way to include us. I dont see how you came up with this conspiracy that mex trying to fix his area of code was somehow some pr stunt by tw. It was just a guy who was passionate about the game and disregarded his companies modus operandi, which honestly i think he took a hit socially for breaking the mold.

Ive seen the Snowball fix mentioned by other Devs/Callum tho -so they do take it on some level as a notched "working with community to solve a problem". I seen Bohemia do the same exact thing once for Arma2 -they had showed us Dynamic Destruction, A better AI and were said to be working on it behind the scene for Arma 2. Then on Early Release this horde of Casuals showed up from 4Chan hell and went on an incessant warpath about the game running under 60 fps -to the point that is smothered all other complaints or points of conversation on the forums -The Devs packed their tents, went up high on Mt olympus and never came back -yet they decided to have one outreach guy to work with the public on just performance running test after test after test with them - ALL other features such as dynamic destruction and AI were placed on feature lock -and never discussed by the Devs again.

It doesnt have be Q-Level conspiracy level to know a company might throw the public a bone of low risk low cost that barely moves the meter.

Objectively the game is more fun post snowballing, but i understand you assume maybe the game could have had bigger changes if the the focus wasnt on snowballing. Problem is snowballing was only being focused on by 1 guy whose only area of code was that. I know what you think would make the game more fun has nothing to do with the actual simulation of the game and has more to do with making the world actually alive which wasnt mex's area to begin with. I dont think because mex was working with the community it left everyone else off from working with the community, they were already told to keep their mouths shut and that they could only interact with us on their own time when they weren't getting paid.

Name me 1 review in which "Wow -this game was bad but finally the Devs fixed that Khuzait Snowball bug -and man what a difference!" ..because it didnt happen. Had they rebuilt an actual robust working game mechanism like a new Auto-Calc that would make the strategy aspect of the worlds map come to life -sure Id give mad props. Throwing arbitrary qualifier at their Auto-calc and the just asking a few people to Mass Test the results so that after 100 games snowball is now 40% less likely -is just murderously bad game design.

I think you said before you like watching long computer patterns or the like -data study..? Well maybe that explains it .... :wink:
 

Sir Frederic

Recruit
@Sir Frederic Yep thats essentially the game loop right now, kingdoms will be normal for about the first 5 years because they all start out at average wealth and a big kingdom bank, but after the first few wars are decided and tributes start being paid the losers are on a downward spiral to bankruptcy. You lose one war and then every other kingdoms recognizes it can easily get tributes from you so they declare and get a massive tribute because the kingdom is even weaker when at war with multiple kingdoms. Sadly i dont have the data to say whether tribute is causing snowballing or if snowballing is causing the tribute. It could be maybe tributes are higher than they use to be so clans are being bankrupted to defeat or kingdoms are getting their asses handed to them and tributes are higher because of it. It might be the latter due to them slowing down the recruit leveling up, we use to have on average tier 3-4 easily recruitable from villages and towns but now its on average tier 1-2.
the mechanic states that the skirmisher realm always has an advantage over the tribute, which I assume is measured by the harasser's initial strength.

The AI is completely random in war, a weak kingdom is not considered weak, therefore it doesn't fight defensively to reduce the enemy's strength. A kingdom that is attacked attacks instead of defending itself first. Furthermore, without player intervention, an attacked kingdom almost never manages to reduce the enemy's strength without reducing its own.

From what I could see, the snowball starts on day 1, with kingdoms declaring war, and is defined by the second wave of declarations of war when war is declared on a kingdom in a previous war. If a kingdom on day 1 received a declaration of war and later receives another declaration, it has already entered a spiral of debt. Excluding Vladia and Aserai, all the other kingdoms have between 4 to 5 neighbors, depending on how the wars are declared on these kingdoms, it is how the debts are stacked.

The troop thing could be, going to battania for troops is disgusting at the moment. And that should significantly affect the strength of their armies. In addition to that, despite having the best archers, what they rarely see in their armies are archers.

In addition, since the AI does not stop declaring wars, the towns and villages do not have time to train troops. It must be common among all of us to see the armies of recruits sent by the AI after you have destroyed much of their initial force.
 

Blood Gryphon

Grandmaster Knight
WBVC
Neither of us know for sure how they felt about it but if nothing else it gives them plausible deniability. And it was misplaced excitement on your end to conclude that we werent left with a still very mismanaged product. Bad game designed slightly fixed with more bad game design .
Not sure where you got that i concluded that we werent left with a mismanaged product, maybe you missed the threads where ive been critical of management (literally look at my first image in my signature :lol: ). I've pretty clearly stated that even though the game isnt what the majority of us want (at least here on the forums), its still the only game like it and the community has got to work with what we can. Sure people can give up trying to help, but the game will ultimately be even worse without the communities feedback.
Ive seen the Snowball fix mentioned by other Devs/Callum tho -so they do take it on some level as a notched "working with community to solve a problem". I seen Bohemia do the same exact thing once for Arma2 -they had showed us Dynamic Destruction, A better AI and were said to be working on it behind the scene for Arma 2. Then on Early Release this horde of Casuals showed up from 4Chan hell and went on an incessant warpath about the game running under 60 fps -to the point that is smothered all other complaints or points of conversation on the forums -The Devs packed their tents, went up high on Mt olympus and never came back -yet they decided to have one outreach guy to work with the public on just performance running test after test after test with them - ALL other features such as dynamic destruction and AI were placed on feature lock -and never discussed by the Devs again.
I did a quick search for snowball for both dejan and callum and nothing like that popped up. They mention snowballing is fixed in patch notes and in a developer update, but they didnt even acknowledge the community in them. So i think maybe your trauma from arma 2 is leaking in to your opinion on this. If you got proof then im happy to take this back, but i didn't see any.
It doesnt have be Q-Level conspiracy level to know a company might throw the public a bone of low risk low cost that barely moves the meter.
Sure its a possibility, but we have plenty of evidence that shows that isnt the case here.
Name me 1 review in which "Wow -this game was bad but finally the Devs fixed that Khuzait Snowball bug -and man what a difference!" ..because it didnt happen. Had they rebuilt an actual robust working game mechanism like a new Auto-Calc that would make the strategy aspect of the worlds map come to life -sure Id give mad props. Throwing arbitrary qualifier at their Auto-calc and the just asking a few people to Mass Test the results so that after 100 games snowball is now 40% less likely -is just murderously bad game design.
Lots of reviews in the snowball thread talking about how its improved their gameplay. On steam store? its mostly people giving bad reveiws because snowballing was still an issue at the time of their review
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198066660810/recommended/261550/
"...However, here I am leaving a negative review. I waited eight long years for this game, with an additional 10 months or so of EA development, and the game is STILL noticeably unfinished. The factions are still atrociously unbalanced (plz fix the Khuzaits, they are still monstrously OP even after your 1.5.7 beta nerf).......The tribute system is indecipherable, there are still potentially campaign-ending bugs, snowballing is still a huge issue......."
https://steamcommunity.com/id/RikRekt/recommended/261550/
"Big Issues:
-The campaigns seem to go by too quickly. One or two factions will snowball at the start..........It seems that pretty much all of the lords of a defeated faction join the faction that defeated them. This feeds into the snowballing problem...."
https://steamcommunity.com/id/tajkaj/recommended/261550/
"........the Khuzait and the Battanians still tend to snowball the map within the first 10 hours of a campaign. There has been some progress made and its much more manageable."
https://steamcommunity.com/id/Earthly/recommended/261550/
"........I just hope they deal with the snowballing effect of kingdoms really soon, that's my biggest complaint about the game, but aside from that it's really fun, singleplayer for me has felt like singleplayer did when I picked up Warband for the first time several years ago, and I can easily see myself sinking several hundred more hours into this game. With the snowballing kingdoms I'm considering just resetting the world while transferring my character........."

I think you said before you like watching long computer patterns or the like -data study..? Well maybe that explains it .... :wink:
Definitely explains why I enjoy helping, other than the fact I want bannerlord to be a better game and i'd rather not just sit around and complain about it but actually contribute..... :wink:
 

Emperor1997

Knight
Problem of kingdoms that have been largely defeated or so, or their remnants are only (just enough) good to raid villages, attack your caravans, or finish armies with much wounded... they are a nuisance, for the game too. You can even not dissuade them to do this since diplomacy - except the fake numbers representing "relationship" - is not existing.
I recently defeated the Battanian(they have no fiefs left) and they started to raid my villages and this with max. Relation with them, they are supposed do not raid your villages, if you have max. Relation with their clan.
 

Madeloc

Regular
I stubbornly insist on trying to have a fun playthrough but I'm gonna surrender soon.

Not sure it is 1.8.0. only, but, either I have no luck either I choose the faction that rolls all over the rest, so I can go do my things without taking care of the war, and the world is conquered anyway.

There is a bit of interest at the start, when starting to build economy, being carefull with troops, upgrades, but once I join a faction, it's the hell boring. Maybe I've played too much lol.

Might give a last try with the Western Empire since they look to be constantly destroyed in all my latest play-throughs (wasn't the case before, but not sure it's an 1.8.0. issue).

So at the moment, I have play throughs without much difficulty, and provided the few things to do once towns/castle are upgraded, and the absence of diplomacy, the field of action is very narrow... I'm playing at normal (realistic) settings except on my character in order not to get OS while I give orders lol, and all I meet are armies or parties with half or less the size of my party, so it's fun a while, but 200 vs 50 all the time is not really interesting. And I sometimes do huge battles but not to much because of the spawning system, agasint which people have talked about for months, but without effect it seems.

There is something missing to make the game interesting past the 2-3 first game-years, even with the nice graphics. In my opinion, and so as to not only criticize, there is really something to do with diplomacy and NPC behaviours.
The game needs more depth in addition to the combat sequences. Which are present but not developped enough (trade, diplomacy as already said, relationships should have more effect and allow "special" actions).

See ya.
 
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