making cooler long axes

[mouthnhoof]

A small tweak to make your longaxe waving experience a lot more satisfying.

Use the item editor to edit itams1.txt:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Instead of two handed left/right swing ability, change it to polearm left/right swing (leave the two handed overhead!)
[*]instead of the 4 two handed parry abilities, mark the 4 polearm parry abilities
[/list]

These animations look much better with an axe. You will now swing from the left without crossing the hands - the way you swing a pole weapon, instead of a sword where the left hand must always grab behind the right. The parries will now be done with the middle of the pole and your hands holding it by its edges (left hand holding below the axe-head).

Now, if only we could change the way the axe is held when in "neutral" position to be the same as polearms it would complete the fix.

Another fun thing if to make the "fighting axe" a bastard axe. It seems to be a very long axe for a 1H weapon and actually looks much more like a true 2H axe (most of the other models are too big for my taste). For this purpose, all that needs to be done is:
[list type=decimal]
[*]define it as "two handed" in items1.txt (with the item editor, this is the "two handed" that appears at the top of the flag list, NOT down below in the list)
[*]Check the two handed left/right/overhead abilities
[*]Check the 4 two handed parry abilities
[*]Tweak the damage and speed to represent a light two handed axe. I make it slightly slower that a heavy bastard sword, but more damaging
[/list]
This makes a really cool Norseman rider axe. It's just long enough to be swang from a horse (though a slow 1H weapon), and play polo with enemy skulls. When you dismount it is a wonderful, fast and light 2H longaxe with better looking proportions that any of the others (unless you are into the manga axes thing).

And if axe length was mentioned - a request:
I think some of the axe "reach" parameters are off. For example, the "fighting axe" seems to be longer than other weapons with 90 reach. If someone can use the BRF editor to check the reach of the various axe models I'd be grateful - I can't do it myself since the reach indicator does not appear on my computer (I think it requires directx9 compatability).

 

[Rhedd]

Okay... but you do cross your arms when swinging an axe left-to-right (in real life, I mean) so why change it to something incorrect?

Also, the axe I use- at least, I haven't paid attention to all of them- the "Two Handed War Axe", is pretty much the size and proportion that it should be (again, in real life), so you've got some misconceptions if you think it's a "manga axe".

 

[Momaw]

If chopping people is anything like chopping wood, you don't cross your hands. One hand grasps the base of the handle, and the other nearer the head as you swing back to gather energy.  As you propel the axe forward, the hand near the head slides down the handle to lengthen the orbit of the head, allowing greater speed and force.

 

[TheGnome]

I think the size of the axes are OK. 

But hoofnmouth has a point.  The axes are currently swung like a two handed sword, which is not how you swing and axe.  If 

you do cross your arms when swinging an axe left-to-right (in real life, I mean)

, then you may be semi retarded.


Follow momaw's instructions and add this:
Swinging an axe left to right, the left hand goes above the right hand. 

From right to left, the right hand goes above the left hand.

 

[fisheye]

Follow momaw's instructions and add this:
Swinging an axe left to right, the left hand goes above the right hand. 

From right to left, the right hand goes above the left hand.

Can you show a vid of how you swap hands when you swing left-right-left? I am confused.

EDIT: Nevermind, answered my own question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqeLSjeQJ7E

Slide bottom hand up the shaft and catch with the other hand.

Looks like you only swap if you're out of reach of your opponent. Hm, makes sense.

 

[Rhedd]

then you may be semi retarded.

Nice.

How nice that my intelligence is insulted, and yet even in the video (which is really not so good) that Fisheye posted to see how it's really done, the axeman crosses his arms at least twice that's very obvious, and possibly more.

Yes, swapping your hand position is optimal, power-wise, but it's also sloooow, and not always practical, depending on circumstances that change every heartbeat.

Any time you have to swap from a horizontal blow to one from the other direction, you're either going to let go of the axe with one hand, or cross your arms. Letting go is definitely not always the right choice.

Also, hand-swapping works best with a technique that uses the axe as a rather short, close weapon. A technique that uses more of the full length of the haft, and wider blows, works better with arm-crossing. It's situational.

"Crossing" your arms shouldn't really be crossing your arms, however. The arm gripping the axe closest to the head shouldn't really go any further than parallel to the haft, and if your forearms get even close to touching, you're doing something horribly wrong.

And no, chopping people is NOTHING like chopping wood. Nothing. Not even slightly.

Wood stands still, and you have all the time in the world to give the exact same repetitive blow over and over again. When most people imagine chopping wood, they picture the technique Mowmaw described being applied to an overhead blow, anyway, which has absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

So, okay, I'm "semi-retarded". Luckily, you don't have to be a genius to hew someone in half with an axe.

You guys go on theorizing about fighting lumberjacks, though, if you like. That takes brains.

 

[TheGnome]

"Crossing" your arms shouldn't really be crossing your arms, however. The arm gripping the axe closest to the head shouldn't really go any further than parallel to the haft, and if your forearms get even close to touching, you're doing something horribly wrong.

Much clearer.  Semi-retarded may have been uncalled for after all.

 

[Kamamura]

Swapping hands when cutting from left = nonsense.

 

[fisheye]

I thought about it some more, and it looks like it's not really about which side you're cutting from (you can cut from either side in either hand position), it's more about which foot you have forward (i.e. one is a mirror stance which includes the mirroring of the hands).

 

[mouthnhoof]

Get a 2H sword and ready a left slash.
Now do the same with a glave.

Which look more natural?

Anyway, the real improvement is the parry.

 

[Ruthven]

One thing that plays a huge part in hand to hand combat is the wrists. using an axe, your hands would only ever cross over if you're doing it wrong. You use your arm, not your wrist, to swing your weapon. It's all too easy for your wrist to brake if someone hits your weapon down with your wrist bent.

 

[MountainBlade]

I don't know if it's realistic or not but I like this type of blocking with the axe. Nice.

 

[cool_guy]

A small tweak to make your longaxe waving experience a lot more satisfying.

Use the item editor to edit itams1.txt:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Instead of two handed left/right swing ability, change it to polearm left/right swing (leave the two handed overhead!)
[*]instead of the 4 two handed parry abilities, mark the 4 polearm parry abilities
[/list]

heh i did this with my bardiche a while back - looks a lot better.
however the two handed animation, especially the new one REALLY suits the pike. keep the two handed spear thrust, though

 

[mouthnhoof]

Follow momaw's instructions and add this:
Swinging an axe left to right, the left hand goes above the right hand. 

From right to left, the right hand goes above the left hand.

Can you show a vid of how you swap hands when you swing left-right-left? I am confused.

EDIT: Nevermind, answered my own question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqeLSjeQJ7E

Slide bottom hand up the shaft and catch with the other hand.

Looks like you only swap if you're out of reach of your opponent. Hm, makes sense.

The axe wielder in this movie is a little clumsy and slow. Check out the films below. I don't know how historical is the style, but the guy is very handy with the long axe. Watch how he changes grips from right to left and that the way to make the axe move fast is not wide swings but instead use your two spaced hands to rotate the axe more than swing it. You'll also notice he uses it to trap opponents shields and trip their legs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ0GcYcS8eE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LUrF2Kv7fw&feature=related
(many more from this guy)

 

[TheMageLord]

Entertaining to watch, but it's obvious the guy with the sword isn't really trying. Most of his swings are way out of reach, and he keeps his distance. Shield + sword vs a polearm like that you'd be way better off moving in close and turning his longer reach against him. That'd make the fighting much more dangerous, though - which is probably why they don't do it. They just want to entertain the crowd

 

[Ruthven]

I think I'll change the animations on axes to swing polearm too. it does look better!

 

[Rhedd]

Yeah, the problem with all of these videos that keep getting posted, and the reason you can't really learn anything useful from them, is that they're all of live-steel re-enactments.

See, in a re-enactment, one presumes you don't really want to lop your friend's arm off, while in actual combat that's pretty much what you're going for.

When it comes to one-handed weapons like a sword, this little difference between re-enactments and real combat is enough to change the techniques noticeably.

When it comes to heavy, two-handed weapons, like axes and maces, however, it's enough of a difference to completely destroy any similarities in technique.

You spend all of your time fighting the very quality of an axe that makes it good: It's momentum.

No doubt the guy in that most recent video is "rotating" the axe more than using it for "wide swings". It's because the other guy might like to walk away from their little demonstration unmaimed!

Fighting with a heavy weapon like an axe or a zweihander is like dancing with a fat woman; you're the one leading, but if you don't have respect for the momentum of your partner, you're not going to be very graceful.

Just to repeat myself for emphasis, fighting with an axe is all about directing the weapon's terrifying weight and momentum. Live-steel re-enactment with an axe is all about controlling that weight, and keeping the momentum to an absolute minimum.

Exact opposites.

 

[mouthnhoof]

That is not the point of the films. I posted them to show that when swinging from left to right the left hand holds above the right - similar to the pole arms animation in MnB and not like the 2H animation. The extra value was that the axe "beard" can be used to trap shields and legs and with the long pole, the long axe is a kind of a short hook-bill. That puts it in the gray zone between a pole arm and a long 2H weapon. The technique of use was also somewhere in between.

 

[Rhedd]

That is not the point of the films. I posted them to show that when swinging from left to right the left hand holds above the right - similar to the pole arms animation in MnB and not like the 2H animation. The extra value was that the axe "beard" can be used to trap shields and legs and with the long pole, the long axe is a kind of a short hook-bill. That puts it in the gray zone between a pole arm and a long 2H weapon. The technique of use was also somewhere in between.

And I'm saying that if you're doing anything other than fighting the momentum of the axe, you don't switch hands for a left-to-right swing.

Just go out in the back yard, pick up a stick, and try it sometime. Swapping hands is slow. Swapping hands breaks the momentum. If you're right-handed, swapping hands is clumsy and unnatural.

In a fight that's not just a re-enactment, slow gets you killed. Even if it is a re-enactment fight, clumsy can get you killed! ^_^

As a matter of fact, if you do it right, I bet you'll find that a cross-hand left-to-right swing has more power, and keeps the blade oriented better, than a right-to-left blow.

When you're actually trying to cleave through a double layer of chainmail, padding, and a man, you're not going to tap at him with a wide-handed grip, letting him get in close. You're going to grab that baby by the bottom and swing for all you're worth... not unlike what the game shows.

True about the axe beard, though. It's great for hooking and pulling shields!

 

[mouthnhoof]

That is not the point of the films. I posted them to show that when swinging from left to right the left hand holds above the right - similar to the pole arms animation in MnB and not like the 2H animation. The extra value was that the axe "beard" can be used to trap shields and legs and with the long pole, the long axe is a kind of a short hook-bill. That puts it in the gray zone between a pole arm and a long 2H weapon. The technique of use was also somewhere in between.

And I'm saying that if you're doing anything other than fighting the momentum of the axe, you don't switch hands for a left-to-right swing.

Just go out in the back yard, pick up a stick, and try it sometime. Swapping hands is slow. Swapping hands breaks the momentum. If you're right-handed, swapping hands is clumsy and unnatural.

In a fight that's not just a re-enactment, slow gets you killed. Even if it is a re-enactment fight, clumsy can get you killed! ^_^

As a matter of fact, if you do it right, I bet you'll find that a cross-hand left-to-right swing has more power, and keeps the blade oriented better, than a right-to-left blow.

When you're actually trying to cleave through a double layer of chainmail, padding, and a man, you're not going to tap at him with a wide-handed grip, letting him get in close. You're going to grab that baby by the bottom and swing for all you're worth... not unlike what the game shows.

True about the axe beard, though. It's great for hooking and pulling shields!

I beg to differ, but I guess that "natural" is an individual feel. The left/right swings are not symmetrical - the right hand moves very little along the shaft, it is only the left hand that grabs above/below it on swings from the left/right. The long axe has enough of a pole to support this - you don't normally grab it at the butt end and swing for maximum range. It is very ineffective. With swords, the right hand is always grabbing at the guard and this is the reason you cannot switch the hands.

Wide handed grip is FAR from a tap. This is why the pole is so long. To increase the speed of the axe head, instead of making a huge circular swing, you do two things:
1. Pull the axe shaft toward you near the end of the swing and shorten the circle radius. This increases the speed for the same angular momentum. It is much more effective than trying to keep accelerating the axe in a circular motion all the way. The axe head will follow something closer to a parabola than a circle.
2. You add a rotation component by pulling with the lower hand and pushing with the upper one. It means that the axe shaft is not aligned with the circle radius and the axe head is running faster than the speed of rotation. Here, the wide grip REALLY makes a difference.

If you ever tried those hammers in carnivals where you must hammer a peddle to make the bell ring, it is much more about technique than brute force.