lol Can we finally allow crossbow reloading on horses please?

[flavior flavius]

The Vlandians are based on the feudal states of EARLY MEDIEVAL Europe, in particular the Normans, the Norse raiders who settled in France then carved out kingdoms for themselves in England, Sicily, and the Holy Land.
https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Bannerlord/Blog/37

Clearly an inaccurate statement on the developer's part. Vikings did not settle in Normandy until 853, and they did not become a distinct culture from the local Franks until the early 900s at the VERY EARLIEST. The developer blog you linked also has a 12th century source listed as inspiration. It also has William the Conqueror listed as an inspiration, which is exactly 1066 Normans FFS. I still think you are arguing in bad faith that the entire game is based solely (or even primarily) on the early medieval period. They clearly took inspiration from other centuries.

It is. Not a copy of course but inspired by. And I am qualified thanks to my profession.

Ah the old "I have a degree in ____ so you can't argue with me" claim. Completely unverifiable of course.

I would be fine if crossbows were re-loadable on the horseback, as long as there would be limit on their size and weight.

Btw.: the reloading mechanism is not the only limiting factor here. Large and heavy crossbows were impractical to be used from the horseback, which is why they were not used. That you can reload certain crossbow from the horseback does not mean it's practical thing to do.

You are aware that even small crossbows had draw weights of like 300 pounds right? Compare that to same period warbows which had a draw weight of 200 pounds max. I'm not advocating for something like a huge heavy crossbow with a winch on horseback, and that isn't even in the game anyway. But the crossbows that ARE in the game currently should be reloadable with a goat's foot clamp instead of having to step on them. The uncommonness of using crossbows on horseback would be reflected in the fact that there are no mounted crossbow troops and that only a hero with the proper specialization would be able to do this.

 

[hruza]

You are aware that even small crossbows had draw weights of like 300 pounds right? Compare that to same period warbows which had a draw weight of 200 pounds max.

Yes I am aware. But take in mind that 300 pounds crossbow is not equal to 300 pound bow in "power" ...meaning how much energy it can give it's projectile when shoot. Bows (and arrows) were much more effective mechanically then crossbows (and bolts). Especially heavier crossbows.

I'm not advocating for something like a huge heavy crossbow with a winch on horseback, and that isn't even in the game anyway. But the crossbows that ARE in the game currently should be reloadable with a goat's foot clamp instead of having to step on them. The uncommonness of using crossbows on horseback would be reflected in the fact that there are no mounted crossbow troops and that only a hero with the proper specialization would be able to do this.

The most powerful crossbows in the game are +- on par with the most powerful bows, so while it's not explicitly depicted in the game, their real life counterparts would be spanned using some sort of mechanism, rather then been spanned just by hand. Because crossbows that powerful would not be able to be spanned by hand. Remember in Warband "siege crossbow" was also spanned by "hand". Likely for simplification reasons.

As for goat's foot leaver, it was still able to span just up to mid power crossbows. And as I said before, the spanning would not be the limiting factor. Beyond certain size and weight, crossbow would simply not be practical in battle from a horseback. Take a longbow for example. You can fire it from the horseback if you want to. Yet it wasn't done other then few (debatable) exceptions. It's simply not practical. Instead people designed much more complex, expensive and harder to maintain recurve composite bows, even if they were not more powerful then a longbows. Reduction in size however made then practical to use from the horseback.

 

[flavior flavius]

Yes I am aware. But take in mind that 300 pounds crossbow is not equal to 300 pound bow in "power" ...meaning how much energy it can give it's projectile when shoot. Bows (and arrows) were much more effective mechanically then crossbows (and bolts). Especially heavier crossbows.

Citation needed.

As for goat's foot leaver, it was still able to span just up to mid power crossbows. And as I said before, the spanning would not be the limiting factor. Beyond certain size and weight, crossbow would simply not be practical in battle from a horseback.

And none of the crossbows in game are too large or unwieldy to use on horseback.

 

[hruza]

Citation needed.

And none of the crossbows in game are too large or unwieldy to use on horseback.

They are. Crossbow that is as powerful as the most powerful longbow in the game? ...definitely too unwieldy.

 

[flavior flavius]

They are. Crossbow that is as powerful as the most powerful longbow in the game? ...definitely too unwieldy.

The video you posted does not prove your point. The most powerful warbows IRL generally had draw weight of around 160 to 200 pounds. I posted a video earlier that you obviously didn't watch so I will post it again. The crossbow in this video has a draw weight of 300 pounds and even with the shorter draw length would be roughly equivalent to a warbow in terms of power. It is definitely usable from horseback with the use of a goat's foot lever to reload.

Note that the crossbow in this vid is generally about the size of the crossbows in game. NOTE this is NOT a heavy crossbow...
The crossbow shown in the video below is a heavy crossbow.

 

[meowwoofneigh]

I'm curious to know what makes people think using crossbows on horseback is somehow 'unrealistic' while surviving a spear stab, a sword slash, or an arrow puncture to the neck/head on 'realism' difficulty after a battle is perfectly fine? This debate is no different from all the other complaints about many things in the game being 'unrealistic' and that it 'breaks one's own immersion'.

 

[flavior flavius]

I'm curious to know what makes people think using crossbows on horseback is somehow 'unrealistic' while surviving a spear stab, a sword slash, or an arrow puncture to the neck/head on 'realism' difficulty after a battle is perfectly fine? This debate is no different from all the other complaints about many things in the game being 'unrealistic' and that it 'breaks one's own immersion'.

You hit the nail on the head, and isn't unrealistic at all... crossbows on horseback happened IRL.

I really don't understand the argument that the game is supposed to be set in an IRL "timeframe" (completely ignoring the fact that it is a fantasy word with factions only loosely related to real life cultures). It somehow hurts "immersion" that a device from the 1300s is being used in a game where at least a few of said factions are demonstrably based off cultures from the 1000s or later.

 

[geala]

The video you posted does not prove your point. The most powerful warbows IRL generally had draw weight of around 160 to 200 pounds. I posted a video earlier that you obviously didn't watch so I will post it again. The crossbow in this video has a draw weight of 300 pounds and even with the shorter draw length would be roughly equivalent to a warbow in terms of power. It is definitely usable from horseback with the use of a goat's foot lever to reload.

Not nearly. A crossbow equal to a Mary Rose kind of longbow of 150+ lbs needed to have at least 800 to 1000 lbs drawweight, that's a rough estimate from the velocities and energies I recognized over the years from tests and calculations. The extremely short draw length of a crossbow eats a lot of velocity/energy. Late medieval steel crossbows were in the range of 750 to 1300 lbs drawweight, so roughly equal to a very strong longbow. BTW both were pathetically weaker than early firearms of course.

Being able to use a crossbow on horseback would depend mainly on the cocking mechanism/device. It would be perfectly possible to span a very strong crossbow with a cranequin on horseback. It would just be a slow affair, it would be very expensive gear and I would doubt the usefulness.

I don't think we should have such crossbows in the Bannerlord Calradia which seem to be a compendium of 5th to 11th c. AD features of "our world". That the year is "1084" may be a hint that technologically the world is more or less like our 11th c. AD.

I hope modders will make light crossbows usuable on horse without a perk and kill the perk to make all crossbows usable.


Edit: one hint to a small book, while I'm normally not the biggest fan of Mike Loades, what he wrote about crossbows in his Osprey book from the "Weapons" series, No. 61 "The Crossbow", is good to read as introduction and contains a lot of interesting data not easy to find in such a compact form elsewhere.

 

[hruza]

The video you posted does not prove your point.

Yes it does.

The most powerful warbows IRL generally had draw weight of around 160 to 200 pounds. I posted a video earlier that you obviously didn't watch so I will post it again. The crossbow in this video has a draw weight of 300 pounds and even with the shorter draw length would be roughly equivalent to a warbow in terms of power.

Comparing draw weights of a bow and crossbow is irrelevant, please watch the video I have posted again.

Crossbow on the video have 450 lb draw weight and is just slightly better then the 95 lb longbow (54J of crossbow bolt to 45J of a longbow arrow). Therefore no way is 300 lb crossbow anywhere near equivalent to the 160, let alone 200 lb longbow.

He is even explicit about fact, that 450 lb crossbow is on the low end of what would be considered battlefield draw weight (at 17:52 in the video).

If you want crossbow that is comparable to 200 lb longbow, you are going to deal with crossbows with more then 1000 lb draw weight. In other words, crossbows that can be operated only using windlasses or cranequins. Or still in other words crossbows that you can in no practical way load on the horseback.

And the video only tests energy of the projectile right after the shoot, it does not tests ballistic over distance, which arrow have much better. In other words, crossbow bolts loose energy faster then arrows.

It is definitely usable from horseback with the use of a goat's foot lever to reload.
Note that the crossbow in this vid is generally about the size of the crossbows in game. NOTE this is NOT a heavy crossbow...

I said at the very beginning, that I am not against light crossbows been used from the horseback.

 

[flavior flavius]

Comparing draw weights of a bow and crossbow is irrelevant, please watch the video I have posted again.

Crossbow on the video have 450 lb draw weight and is just slightly better then the 95 lb longbow (54J of crossbow bolt to 45J of a longbow arrow). Therefore no way is 300 lb crossbow anywhere near equivalent to the 160, let alone 200 lb longbow.

He is even explicit about fact, that 450 lb crossbow is on the low end of what would be considered battlefield draw weight (at 17:52 in the video).

If you want crossbow that is comparable to 200 lb longbow, you are going to deal with crossbows with more then 1000 lb draw weight. In other words, crossbows that can be operated only using windlasses or cranequins. Or still in other words crossbows that you can in no practical way load on the horseback.

I have to admit I only watched until about 12 minutes in so I missed that part. Point conceded about the longbow vs crossbow strength.

And the video only tests energy of the projectile right after the shoot, it does not tests ballistic over distance, which arrow have much better. In other words, crossbow bolts loose energy faster then arrows.

Not necessarily Don't crossbow bolts tend to be heavier than arrows? If they are, loss of velocity over distance is primarily based off of air resistance and not projectile weight. In addition a heavier projectile usually means a more stable flight path. If the ballistics of arrows is in any way comparable to the ballistics of firearms, heavier projectiles also tend to have wounding qualities that don't nessecarily show themselves in kinetic energy comparisons. For example, IIRC a 9mm round has a higher kinetic energy on impact than a .45 round but the .45 is a FAR deadlier projectile.

I said at the very beginning, that I am not against light crossbows been used from the horseback.

Then why are you arguing with me? The crossbows in the game ARE light crossbows. I don't see anyone reloading them with winches.

 

[Herbiazors]

We'll see what they do regarding it, will be interesting to see the end product.

 

[hruza]

Not necessarily Don't crossbow bolts tend to be heavier than arrows?

Not really, because arrows are much larger. But that's not the reason. Reason is that because arrow is longer and have 3 stabilizers compared to bolt's 2, arrow is more stable in the flight. Bolt is less stable and have larger tendency to wobble in flight thus increasing friction considerably.

Then why are you arguing with me? The crossbows in the game ARE light crossbows.

They're not. The top crossbows in the game have only slightly less power then top bows in the game. And crossbow that is comparable in power to a 160-200 lb longbow is not a light crossbow, I can guarantee you that.

I don't see anyone reloading them with winches.

As I said, that's likely for simplification purposes. Heavy crossbows were not reloaded with winches in Warband either and you won't see goat foots levers or spanning belts in any MB games as well. All crossbows in the game are spanned by hand, which obviously is unrealistic. Creating all the animations and methods for loading different crossbows is obviously too much complexity for the purpose of the game.

 

[stringman7113]

Wow you guys must be hardcore crossbow experts.

 

[Locklave]

They just need to have different crossbow types like bows, some that work on horseback. Other then appearance how are crossbows and bows even different mechanically other then 1 firing more slowly and doing more damage?

Every other weapon has variants that are slower and harder hitting.

This historical debate is moot. It would be balanced.

 

[stringman7113]

They just need to have different crossbow types like bows, some that work on horseback. Other then appearance how are crossbows and bows even different mechanically other then 1 firing more slowly and doing more damage?

Every other weapon has variants that are slower and harder hitting.

This historical debate is moot. It would be balanced.

Agreed. Crossbows should just be separated into two groups - heavy non-horseback and light usable on horseback (with the perk unlocked, provided the animation is added to the game).

That would be balanced and give players a reason to play as a heavy crossbow athletics build (like the Vlandian Sharpshooter).

 

[flavior flavius]

They're not. The top crossbows in the game have only slightly less power then top bows in the game. And crossbow that is comparable in power to a 160-200 lb longbow is not a light crossbow, I can guarantee you that.

Claiming that all crossbows in the game are heavy crossbows because they do as much damage as bows is your individual interpretation that you are passing off as a fact. But, I think that claiming all of the crossbows in the game are light crossbows because they have short spans and are reloaded without mechanical assistance is an equally valid opinion, especially if you consider light crossbow damage to be higher than it would be IRL as a concession for the purpose of balance. Crossbows would be completely unusable in game if they had a slower firing rate AND did less damage than bows.

You have to remember that bannerlord is a game first, and a medieval combat simulator second. Realism should, and does, take a backseat to balance and gameplay.

 

[Apocal]

I'm curious to know what makes people think using crossbows on horseback is somehow 'unrealistic' while surviving a spear stab, a sword slash, or an arrow puncture to the neck/head on 'realism' difficulty after a battle is perfectly fine?

If you're playing with full damage, the only way you survive a (decent) spear to the head is with a helmet.

 

[meowwoofneigh]

If you're playing with full damage, the only way you survive a (decent) spear to the head is with a helmet.

Naturally, but even so I still sometimes drop dead with full health whenever something managed to give me a clean hit.

 

[Apocal]

Naturally, but even so I still sometimes drop dead with full health whenever something managed to give me a clean hit.

Sure. But I wouldn't say it is inherently unbelievable to have someone survive spear thrust to their head as long as they were wearing a helmet. I definitely wouldn't see anything unrealistic with them being able to take a sword's slash either, since swords can't cut through metal.

 

[hruza]

Claiming that all crossbows in the game are heavy crossbows because they do as much damage as bows is your individual interpretation that you are passing off as a fact.

Yes, but so is yours that they are all light. My argument is, that they are heavy, because they have power of the heavy crossbows. Your argument is that they are all light because they are loaded by hand. My argument against that is that all crossbows in all MB games were always loaded by hand, including heavy ones, likely not to complicate things for developers. So there is precedent for that.