Language suggestions for the Troop Tree

[Robis]

Seen that Rhodok have the names of italian soldiers, I noticed you gave them the name of the weapon, while there is a class name for each. A few examples:
-
Rhodock Lancia refers to the weapon, the name should be Lanciere Rhodok (instead of Rhodok Lanciere, grammar italian rule: the name before the adjective. I know this doesn't fit with the rest of the unit names, but it could be Rhodok Lanciere as well if you prefer).
- Rhodok Lanze Spezzate should be Lancia Spezzata Rhodok (i dunno if there's some medieval names called Lanze Spezzate, in that case it could be ok)
- Rhodok Tirocinante refers to a young workman the is at his first time to work and it is in a traineship before get employed full time . It could be Novizio Rhodok. Similar for Apprendista, but this sounds better.
- Rhodok Balestra Milizia; again balestra=crossbow while balestriere=crossbowman, so it should be Milizia Balestriere Rhodok, Balestriere a Cavallo Rhodok, Balestriere d'Assedio Rhodok, Balestriere Leggero (instead of Veloce, because Veloce means fast) and so on.
- Similarly we have Lancia -> Lanciere (spearman or lancer), Picca -> Picchiere (pikeman)
- Rhodok Leggera, i dunno what it should means. If leggera is there for light, than it could be Milizia Leggera Rhodok
- Rhodok Infatti = Rhodok Indeed, i suppose it should be Fante Rhodok
- Fiamminghi is the plural for Fiammingo, Fameglia should be something for Famiglia, that means Family/Household. I dunno what it is supposed to be.

So:

Cittadino Rhodok - Novizio Rhodok - Milizia R. - Lanza Spezzata R.
                                                                        -  Fante R. - Veterano R. -  Capitano di Ventura R. -  Condottiero R.
                                                        - Milizia Balestriere R. -  Balestriere R. -  Balestriere Veterano R. -  Balestriere Pesante R.
                                                                                          - Balestriere d'Assedio R. -  Capitano d'Assedio R. - Condottiero d'Assedio R.
                            - Recluta Rhodok -  Recluta Balestriere R. - Balestriere Leggero R. - Balestriere a Cavallo R.
                                                        - Lanciere R. - Lanciere Veterano R. - Picchiere Veterano R. - Picchiere Fiammingo R.
                                                                                                                  - Guardia R. - Guardia Ducale R.
                                                                              - Lanciere a Cavallo R.



That's done. I've changed the name of some units to make a sense within the tree. The Rhodok Infatti is now Lanciere Veterano R. now, the Guardia Ducale is Guardia and Fameglia Ducale is Guardia Ducale. Similarly, there are no more a Condottier and Condottiero Veterano, just a Veterano and a Condottiero. Finally, Condottiero is more important than Capitano di Ventura.

A question. Why all these kinds of crossbowmen ? Are they supposed t have different  proficiency in melee or what else ?


A final note: please fix the night battles. It is almost impossible to see anything

EDIT: i forgot that Giovani is now Veterano. I made a fast research, and Lanza Spezzata is a mounted unit, then i switched Condottiero a cavallo to Lanza Spezzata, and the former Lanza spezzata is now a Provisionato. They are both medieval mercenary units, one mounted, the other one not.
EDIT 2 : to make the plural, you have simpli switch tha last voyel to a i, with the exception of Recluta, Lanza and Guardia the become ReclutE, LanzE and GuardiE

 

[Shapic]

Great work, good luck in debugging 
For people having some runtime issues: I found some solutions, search for link in the thread, or simply search through forum. Since the mod is quite big, maybe put that link in first post?
Well, I'm Russian, so some suggestions about Vaegir troop tree, as it look a bit weird for me:
Vaegir Voyi - think you meant Voiny (Warriors), Voyi is a long forgotten, newer heard it.
Vaegir Starshaya Cossack - starshaya is female  better use starshiy, same for Dvor. By the way, always thought that they are written same as in russian: Kazak. You know, it's look and spelling are better. Well, found that on english wiki they are cossacks. Up to you.
Don Cossack - with proper russian spelling he is Donskoy Cossack. But it may look weird from the point of english language up to you again.
Prikazshchik - proper is prikazchik. A bit less tongue breaking for you  But this word is from other time, use Posadnik instead.
Gridny - Knyaz's Bodyguards. Don't underestimate them  Change for Kmet'.
Speaking about them, Gridny and Otroki are multiple numbers (may be plural, excuse my english, I'm not a linguist). Single are: Otrok, Grid' (no n in this word, refering to wiki)
Knyaz - king in ancient russia, replace it by Grid'.
Luchshe - is better. Cannot use it this way, better is best , luchshiy/luchshaya (second is for female. Why? Cos Druzina is female word  )
Golova and Voivode - proper Voevoda, Golova is head, almost never used this way, Voevoda - actual commander, at least flip them.
Strelets - troops from other time and class

Spoiler

use Ratnik.
Poztoena - not sure what you wanted to say. Postoyannaya - is permanent. Are you sure, that this tree need this class?
Dvor - who the hell is this?! Dvor is: 1) yard 2) court 3) courtyard. Court is too wide. May be better is marksman (strelok)?

 

[monnikje]

Alright, back from work.

File Hosting:
As people might have seen, I've put the files up on MBRepository. I split the Music off as a separate download , Also there are a few mirrors and a torrent: I hope this is enough for now.

Bugs:
- About the npc's appearing twice in taverns: it's a bug that originated from - I though - Custom Commander (I just got home, I'll check later). I'm not sure how to fix that, unfortunately .
- Death cam staying at one place: It worked fine for me. I'll have a look at it (no pun intended).
- Too dark nights: I'll look into that, trying to brighten things up a little.
- Missing mesh from splinted greaves: Thanks! I think something must have gone wrong the past few days, because it was there earlier. I'll fix it.
- Brigadines and shirts having head armor instead of body armor: oops, must have filled in the armor on the wrong spot there, and due to copy - paste it ruined the variations too.
- Removing the Combat Animations Mod: what Slots said. If you'd want to remove certain animations, you'd better get the source code, compare my module_animations.py with the native one, change the ones you don't like back and compile it. Or you can compare the two animations.txt files, although it's much clearer in the source files which par belongs to what animation.
- Kingdom offer with optional troop tree: strange! I'm surprised that a troop tree can have such an effect.
- Shields having -26 health: Hm... strange! Stikes, which shields did you spot this with?

I see the OSP has been added to the expanded pack. But OSP has a couple of serious game breaking bugs, one of which is that enduring issue of former Swadian lords who join the player faction not recruiting troops, which was fixed in 1.127c but resurfaced in 1.131b. Has you managed to fix this?

This was fixed in both the official update to 1.132 and in the latest Diplomacy, so yes, this has been fixed .


Childboard:
I'll have to request that: I think I'll do that after the weekend. Then the admins can have a look and decide if this mod is granted a childboard.

Language issues:
First of all, I appreciate every correction you can give me! I only speak Dutch and English, and a tiny little German (although my grammar is quite terrible there). I've had French and Latin at school, but that has been a long time ago, and I don't remember much of it.
To create the names I used Wikipedia to search for names used for troops around Medieval times. That didn't give me enough names, so I also looked at Oddball's troop tree and Medieval 2: Total War for inspiration. This still didn't give me enough names. So I took some online dictionaries, and tried to translate 'veteran', 'elder', 'archer' and such words into the right languages, to make some variations.
The languages I used for the troop trees:
Swadia: Mostly English, although some knights (Lancier) and spearman (Haveur) are French (Lancier is actually an old french name). It fits the French/English idea I had behind them .
Vaegir: All Russian names. I had quite some trouble finding Medieval names. Some names, like Dvor, come from other troop trees or games.
Khergit: Mongol names. Wikipedia didn't give enough names for the units, and google translate doesn't support Mongolian yet. Luckily I was able to find an English-Mongolian dictionary with explanations of some words, so I was able to get horse archery names for the horse archers etc.
Nord: A combination of Swedish, Danish and Norse names, both modern as from the time of the Vikings. For example, Bueskytte is Danish for Archer, and in Viking times Huscarls (house servants) served the Husbondi (house masters). I used the Viking pages from Wikipedia a lot.
Rhodok: All Italian names, both from the english wikipedia pages as the italian translations from that (I can't read italian, but I could deduce what the name should be).
Sarranid: Arabic names, both from the Ottoman Empire, the Mamluk Egypt and translations. I was able to find quite a lot of unit names here.
Mercenaries: German names.
Women: How many woman based units from Medieval times can you name? I bet you won't get to 20 . I had that same problem. You'll find names from all of history in here (like amazons), names of battling historical women (like Kenau) or just some variations, like dressed up woman. It's a mixture between Dutch, German and English.
Robis & Shapic: Thanks for the corrections! I'll have a look at them. Since I don't speak any Italian or Russian, I made quite some mistakes. I'm glad you corrected them .

Troop Tree Complexity:
RalliX: I'll have a look the coming week if I can make yours compatible.

Trading:
mp84: I'll have a look at how Brytenwalda does it. Thanks!

Fixing stuff will happen after the weekend. But keep the reports coming, for that can only improve the mod .

 

[TehGanker]

I apologize in advance for the partly wrong English words, I hope I will finish to reading these are the thoughts correctly and I will be expressed well.
I at all don't want to introduce mess in common cause, however I consider due to note the following:
1) Vaegirs.
Voy (pl. value - Voyi) - quite correct word, Old Russian, isn't used now, an anachronism. This word is really translated as "warrior".

Don Cossack - with proper russian spelling he is Donskoy Cossack. But it may look weird from the point of english language up to you again.

I believe that it will be correct to name this unit simply "Cossack",or "Kazak". Donskoy is a word it is simply applicable to those Cossacks who lived on river banks Don, and such river in Calradia like and isn't present.
Cossacks - the general concept, first community of the fluent people united by the general destiny, and later become by so-called subethnos which occupied rather extensive territory. Well, however at us here not Wikipedia branch - I apologize for offtop.

Golova and Voivode - proper Voevoda, Golova is head, almost never used this way, Voevoda - actual commander, at least flip them.

"Golova" it also quite correct word. However it will be more pertinent to use other derivative word, for example "Glavar'". Also means the commander of group or larger formation (colonel). For a tree of Cossacks the word "ataman" will be rather suitable.

Knyaz - king in ancient russia, replace it by Grid

Alas, it isn't absolutely true. Knyaz is a large, influential feudal, the European analog - the lord, count.  As the king of Russia was called Tzar, or Tsar. Hardly probable this word will be pertinent for a designation of usual soldiers

Poztoena - not sure what you wanted to say. Postoyannaya - is permanent. Are you sure, that this tree need this class?

I believe here meant "regular".

Generalizing all told I can tell that it is not necessary to hasten to correct names of units. Not all the players who have play to this remarkable module Russian-speaking, and Russian-speaking in the majority simply slightly will smile, having seen these names, especially almost all of them pertinent and correct.
Work on the module has been done considerable, result wonderful, and some insignificant errors in names of armies at all don't spoil impression.

2) Khergits. Always surprised that in some modules authors do by it to Khergits of infantry units, though at Mongols in general was a disgrace to go on foot. Even patients, wounded men and old men moved on carts. On each nomad of khanate it was necessary at least two horses.

3) Rhodok. I believe that Rhodoks on spirit more close Switzerland and Alpian Italy, than Italy Appenin peninsula as a whole. They are the mountaineers, proud free people who stoically in a current of many hundreds years defended the independence of encroachments almost all countries of Europe. In the module it is perfectly realized, proof infantry, well-aimed marksmans.

Wonderfull module, hope some instability wil be fixed. /pray /salute

 

[Shapic]

I believe that it will be correct to name this unit simply "Cossack",or "Kazak".

The thing is that troop tree already have Cossack. Since we are not going for historical/geografical bull****, it really doesn't matter.

the word "ataman" will be rather suitable

Ataman is kind of general, the whole army of them will look weird.

Alas, it isn't absolutely true. Knyaz is a large, influential feudal, the European analog - the lord, count.  As the king of Russia was called Tzar, or Tsar. Hardly probable this word will be pertinent for a designation of usual soldiers

Oh, rly? Tsar was oficial russian sovereign's title from 1547 to 1721. There are no firearms in the game, so that's not their time. Knyaz of that time is more like nordic konung.

I can tell that it is not necessary to hasten to correct names of units.

Yes, but we can make it even better, so why not?

I believe here meant "regular".

Absolutely, regular will be perfect. Still, may be delete this unit? I think most of players will skip it.
TehGanker the only valuable thought in all post. Хорош в камментах срать! 

 

[Robis]

Cittadino Rhodok - Novizio Rhodok - Milizia R. - Lanza Spezzata R.
                                                                        -  Fante R. - Veterano R. -  Capitano di Ventura R. -  Condottiero R.
                                                        - Milizia Balestriere R. -  Balestriere R. -  Balestriere Veterano R. -  Balestriere Pesante R.
                                                                                          - Balestriere d'Assedio R. -  Capitano d'Assedio R. - Condottiero d'Assedio R.
                            - Recluta Rhodok -  Recluta Balestriere R. - Balestriere Leggero R. - Balestriere a Cavallo R.
                                                        - Lanciere R. - Lanciere Veterano R. - Picchiere Veterano R. - Picchiere Fiammingo R.
                                                                                                                  - Guardia R. - Guardia Ducale R.
                                                                              - Lanciere a Cavallo R.



That's done. I've changed the name of some units to make a sense within the tree. The Rhodok Infatti is now Lanciere Veterano R. now, the Guardia Ducale is Guardia and Fameglia Ducale is Guardia Ducale. Similarly, there are no more a Condottier and Condottiero Veterano, just a Veterano and a Condottiero. Finally, Condottiero is more important than Capitano di Ventura.

A question. Why all these kinds of crossbowmen ? Are they supposed t have different  proficiency in melee or what else ?


A final note: please fix the night battles. It is almost impossible to see anything

EDIT: i forgot that Giovani is now Veterano. I made a fast research, and Lanza Spezzata is a mounted unit, then i switched Condottiero a cavallo to Lanza Spezzata, and the former Lanza spezzata is now a Provisionato. They are both medieval mercenary units, one mounted, the other one not.
EDIT 2 : to make the plural, you have simpli switch tha last voyel to a i, with the exception of Recluta, Lanza and Guardia the become ReclutE, LanzE and GuardiE

 

[TehGanker]

Ataman is kind of general, the whole army of them will look weird.

Alas, it besides isn't absolutely true. As the ataman could be called and leaders of military-civil formations, also however for example leaders of the predatory gangs. Сertainly the whole army from atamans will look it a little ridiculous, however 6-8 nevertheless admissible quantity.

Oh, rly? Tsar was oficial russian sovereign's title from 1547 to 1721. There are no firearms in the game, so that's not their time. Knyaz of that time is more like nordic konung.

The concept "Knyaz" had various, though also similar values during different epoch. If to take pagan time, pre-Christian Russia - that it really is closer to nordic "konung". Byzantines of that epoch named Russian knyazes "archons". In 12 and 13 centuries is a feudal lord, it the lord or the count. Knyazes ruled Russian princedoms of that epoch of feudal dissociation. Later there was a title "Velikiy Knyaz vseya Russia" (Great Knyaz of all Russian Domain), or the Tsar. The word was used till the end of existence of the Russian empire, however it had already a bit different value.
I don't wish to argue with you, in what that I am solidary with you, however it is not necessary to be so critical to other opinions, especially they are buttressed up by facts. It is wrong to take out a verdict to a fast, like about "doesn't matter" or "only valuable thought in all post". As I mentioned earlier, I don't want to bring mess, also I wish that all of us have helped the author to make the module better.
Shapic, может быть просто напишешь всю ветку Вейгирских войск транслитом, а я может поимею смелость кое что подправить, если позволишь конечно.

 

[Shapic]

TehGanker never meant to intimidiate you, just wanted suggestions, not mumbling In Rus there were simply пехота, конники, лучники so searching for such amount of different old ranks was brainbreaking even for a russian =/
Researched cossacks a bit, I was not right, there is unbelievable amount of atamans. I judjed by some movies and well known phrases. So: my suggestions about renaming Vaegir troop tree.
I suppose branch after Voyi consisnts of shooters. If not - I will be close to suicide

                                                                                                                |-Vaegir Ataman                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                |                                         
                                                                                    |-Vaegir Yesaul ---|-Vaegir Pansirniy Cossack -|-Vaegir Vityas- Vaegir Bogatyr
                                                    |- Vaegir Cossack -- |                                                                      |
                                                    |                              |- Vaegir Plastun                                              |-(You really need this one? Who will make this if bogatyr is better?)
                      |-Vaegir Otrok ->---|                 
                      |                              |                      |- Vaegir Ratnik-|-Vaegir Posadnik-- Vaegir Boyar Son
                      |                              |                      |                        |
Vaegir Serf ->|                              | - Vaegir Kmet-|                        |-(You really need this one? Who will make this if Boyar Son is better? Then Vaegir Golova)
                      |                              |                      |
                      |- Vaegir Pasynok ->|                      |-Vaegir Zastrelshik -- Vaegir Tulnik -- Vaegir Luchnik -- Vaegir Luchnik-Veteran
                                                      |
                                                      |-Vaegir Grid'-|-Vaegir Mladshiy Druzhinnik-|- Vaegir Druzhinnik -- Vaegir Elitniy Druzhinnik
                                                                            |                                            |
                                                                            |-(Don't even look here)        |-Vaegir Druzhinnik-Veteran

Whoa that was hell, hope monnikje will look at it .
BUT there are some other thoughts about reworking it: Vityaz is kind of knight and Bogatyr is freaking unbelievable superman.
Besides the end of druzhina is rather ****ed up. Btw, Bogatyr and Elitniy Druzhinnik are both good horseman maybe make the this way:
|-Vaegir Yesaul -- Vaegir Pansirniy Cossack -- Vaegir Ataman
- clear line of warriors with good riding skill, and some compromise between shooting/melee
- line of pure archers
and
|-Vaegir Grid'-|-Vaegir Mladshiy Druzhinnik-|- Vaegir Druzhinnik --Vaegir Vityas- Vaegir Bogatyr
                                                                    |
                                                                    |-Vaegir Bodyguard (why not? Or place them behind Druzhinnik and call Heavy(Tyazheliy) or Veteran) 
Making it a line of pure melee horseman with some ****ty infantry making it a bit unbalanced against other troops. To maintain balance:
|- Vaegir Druzhinnik --Vaegir Vityas- Vaegir Bogatyr
|
|-Vaegir Kopeyshik - Vaegir Heavy(Tyazheliy) Kopeyshik
- a group of pikeman ending at sixth tier.

Nords are a bit complicated. Don't know their equipment, so can't say anything about your logic, but there are few troops that look just as ballast. Same for others.
May be rework troop trees into simplier lines, without this "falling out" low level troops? Like mine one for Vaegirs? This will take some time, of course, but after, this troop tree wil replace the one made by magus

Btw, title Knyaz was legal in Russia till 1917
                             

 

[disenchanter]

It would be better if troop names just got descriptive names in English. Failing that, I support shapic's concerns - those "Russian" names wouldn't be as problematic if they were a little better done.
For example, "Dvor" possibly is supposed to be "Dvorianin" - a person who belongs to a ruler's court can be a soldier, the court itself cannot be.

Personally, I prefer if the names demonstrate an in-depth knoweldge of the faction, rather than the language, especially if the language isn't that compatible with English, or features some setting-breaking elements(as in the Kazaki). That way, people who have different understanding of factions(e.g. think Rhodks should be Swiss, not Italian, Vaegirs as Poland-Lithuanian instead of Russian), won't feel a prick every time they look at their troop trees.

 

[Robis]

Rhodok should be a merge btw Genoese crossbows and swiss pikemen

 

[Dynastia]

I agree totally with disenchanter ; but if you really want to keep the foreign languages...

- Dvor is from Medieval II Total War, and as far as I can tell they were trying to say "Courtier", as in ; some type of bonded royal soldier. As far as I know it has no historical basis whatsoever.

-For Knyaz ; it's often translated to "Prince" or "Grand Duke" in English but in reality it was just as influential and powerful a title as King. If you want to give Old Yaroglek a Russian title to replace "King" it should be Knyaz, or possibly Khagan (but that's  old-school pagan Rus')

- Vaegir Serf should be changed to Vaegir Kholop if you want it in Russian. Kholops had rights and status falling somewhere between chattel slaves and West European serfs.

I also think the troop trees are too large in general and would be much better if you broke them up into three or four "trees" per faction... for instance, Serf Units, Sergeant Units and Noble Units. Once a Serf maxes out his level, he stays there ; as some woefully weak serf-with-a-leather-helmet-and-maybe-a-spear. It could be balanced by making serfs cheap and plentiful, while nobles require a large investment of gold, a very high prestige and probably your own castle.

 

[Shapic]

- Vaegir Serf should be changed to Vaegir Kholop if you want it in Russian

Agree, but serf is just translation.

- Dvor is from Medieval II Total War, and as far as I can tell they were trying to say "Courtier", as in ; some type of bonded royal soldier. As far as I know it has no historical basis whatsoever.

For example, "Dvor" possibly is supposed to be "Dvorianin" - a person who belongs to a ruler's court can be a soldier, the court itself cannot be.

That's why I completely renamed them. The only corresponding rank is Grid, but it is from junior druzhina.
Making such troop names was monnikje's feature. Let's apreciate his research work. We just want to help it look better. More corresponding to the languages he used.
Btw if you don't like his troops, just use alternative, there are two of them. But one is a bit buggy now.

up into three or four "trees" per faction...

I suppose you correspond to Rus XIII Century? This leads to some casualities, let's remember that this is mod pack, making Native better, not a completely new mod.

 

[Dynastia]

I'm not trying to **** on anything monnike's done, this is a wonderful modpack ; but when a mod comes so close to being perfect for me I get greedy and want more . I will check out alternative trooptrees though, because I prefer smaller compact trees.

And to translate Kholop into English I think "Slave" would be much more fitting than "Serf". There are countless different classifications of unfree people which have either fallen out of use in the English language, or have no English word for them ; but the main difference between serfdom and slavery is that a master cannot sell or trade his serfs away. Kholops in Medieval Rus' could be sold.

 

[Shapic]

Main thing I don't like in small troop trees is that later in game you have whole army of clones. Such tree makes game more interesting. But this "dead ends" only make troop tree load longer.
Dynastia well, what you say is true, but you can't judge russia only from one side. Kholop could go away by his own will, there was a day, when it was completely legal. Btw, later, he could buy himself out But yes it was more like slavery.

 

[Crounch]

It would be better if troop names just got descriptive names in English.

I find myself agreeing completely with that statement... It's a shame because you obviously spent a lot of time carefully picking the names for all troops, and that's great work, but while playing it kind of gets in the way. whenever I need to choose between 2 upgrades, I'm clueless when trying to remember those Sarranid names, so instead I ignore the names and i memorized if I need to choose option 1 or option 2... Probably not the effect intended

 

[Niewitch]

It would be better if troop names just got descriptive names in English.

I find myself agreeing completely with that statement... It's a shame because you obviously spent a lot of time carefully picking the names for all troops, and that's great work, but while playing it kind of gets in the way. whenever I need to choose between 2 upgrades, I'm clueless when trying to remember those Sarranid names, so instead I ignore the names and i memorized if I need to choose option 1 or option 2... Probably not the effect intended

I agree that too, prefered english names and not too fancy many languages mess.

 

[Shapic]

You can check troop tree in reports menu.

 

[Robis]

Well, instead of the language problem, the main issue is about the too long and complex tree development. IT's a great job, of course, but there is too much choice with too same units. As i said, i don't understand the need for all those crossbowmen in the rhodok tree, for example.

 

[Shapic]

Robis I agree completely, but since the thread is called Language suggestions for the Troop Tree...

 

[monnikje]

Thanks people for the suggestions: I'll have a look at them before the weekend. Great work on the names!

As for the Rhodok crossbows: note that there are three 'lanes' of crossbows: one that has heavy siege crossbows with a slow rate of fire, but that do much damage, one with the normal crossbows and one with light, which lead eventually to mounted crossbowmen.

Personally I like the names, but I can understand the difficulties when upgrading. Just a wild though: adding their type behind the name? That would give Sarranid Jebelus Archers for example. I think the names can become too long when I do this, so maybe omit the faction at all, since the name already suggests where it comes from? I'm not convinced of this myself yet, but it's just an idea I toss in the ring.