It seems like recent medieval games are generating a following of undesirables

[Caius_III]

I agree with you 578, everything you said makes perfect sense.

I'm also waiting for the proof by the way, but apparently we're not getting it anytime soon.

This is a long shot 578 but were you bullied at school?

Also stop capitalizing random words in your sentences, makes you look like a maniac.

It illustrates the level of the ones you're disagreeing with.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

This is a long shot 578 but were you bullied at school?

Yes, I am racist because I like Vikings according to you, please log off.

You really aren't going to let that go even after 10 pages of me explaining that's not what I said?

This is how I correctly guessed you were bullied at school. Everything you argue for is solely based around the fact that you don't like being told what to do. I can understand that, neither do I, but for you it's like your entire worldview is built around immediately shutting your eyes and saying "I DON'T CARE, I DON'T CARE, DOESN'T AFFECT ME" the moment someone says you should be aware of some issue that affects you. At the same time you say "nobody cares, nobody cares" and attribute anything to the contrary as "just whiners, not trve gamers". I firmly believe that stupidity is a choice, and what you're doing is choosing to be stupid to protect your video game safe space. I know where this mentality comes from because I used to be like this, but it's still really pathetic. It's the insecure bullied kid mentality.

There is nothing per se wrong with edgy humour. I recently got muted for hiding the N word in my posts to mess with one of the moderators I know. The difference is that I make these jokes with people I know aren't actually racist. On the other hand a multiplayer lobby is a public place. If anyone is stupid enough to make unironic racist jokes where everyone can see then I am going to assume they are unironically racist. It doesn't matter if they are 12 years old or 50. They all know what racism is and are flaunting a system which they know won't ban or mute them if they continue.
Imagine you went to a multiplayer server and it was full of Nigerians with 300 ping shouting "KILL THE WHITE MAN", "BREED THE HONKY OUT OF EXISTENCE", "HOLOMODOR 2 PLS" whenever they kill you, and if you told them to shut up they just told you to take the joke and continued. Now imagine a game where most of the servers are like this, and the developers just throw their hands up and ignore it. Now imagine a community where people tell you to shut the hell up if you suggest the developers ban some of them.

Also, how is moderation going to affect you personally if you aren't a racist spammer?

 

[Caius_III]

So anybody that disagrees with you is an insecure bullied kid apparently.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Why, were you bullied at school too?

 

[Caius_III]

I'm fine thank you, but it's something interesting actually, let's pretend somebody who got bullied at school for real decided to disagree with you, would he be irrelevant because he got bullied ? This is discrimination isn't it ? For someone as open minded as you, that's quite surprising.

 

[Mr.Milker]

"We should let people choose what they want to see in chat. Unless they choose to say we should not say racist ****, that's censorship.
If they do choose to say racist ****, ah well, can't be helped! Choice of the people, amirite?! *wink wink*"
"Also people who don't want that aren't real gamers, like I am."

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I'm fine thank you, but it's something interesting actually, let's pretend somebody who got bullied at school for real decided to disagree with you, would he be irrelevant because he got bullied ?

Whether someone has been bullied or not doesn't make their argument invalid. Quite the opposite actually. The reason I brought it up was because I have met (irl and online) dozens of people with the exact same "I DON'T CARE" ultra-defensive attitude to everything, especially when they base so much of their identity in video games. When you talk to these people it almost always comes down to them being bullied in school because they were quiet and shy, and then either attaching their sense of self-worth to video games, or pretending not to care about anything as a self-defence mechanism, or some combination of both. A well-adjusted person doesn't get defensive about someone trying to moderate racism in a video game.

I don't think 578 is racist at all, I think he just likes video games a lot and is (irrationally) worried that more moderation will ruin his hobby.

I am a teacher in real life so recognising this mentality is literally part of my job.

For someone as open minded as you, that's quite surprising.

Why are you assuming I'm an open minded person?

 

[MountAndMemeButterlord]

I think it's kind of funny that the people *****ing about moderation in video games whine harder and more often than I have ever seen people complaining about the racism and harassment itself. When did kids get so spoiled that they cry when someone tells them they can't spam the N word or call random people slurs?

 

[Caius_III]

I am a teacher in real life

Poor students.

 

[Roccoflipside]

Probably not the smartest move as Kentucky just said he got muted for hiding that word in his posts. 

 

[MountAndMemeButterlord]

Probably not the smartest move as Kentucky just said he got muted for hiding that word in his posts. 

Maybe they are 12 or autistic and genuinely can't help it, how hard can it be to keep on private matches or discord with friends?

 

[578]

I'm fine thank you, but it's something interesting actually, let's pretend somebody who got bullied at school for real decided to disagree with you, would he be irrelevant because he got bullied ?

Whether someone has been bullied or not doesn't make their argument invalid. Quite the opposite actually. The reason I brought it up was because I have met (irl and online) dozens of people with the exact same "I DON'T CARE" ultra-defensive attitude to everything, especially when they base so much of their identity in video games. When you talk to these people it almost always comes down to them being bullied in school because they were quiet and shy, and then either attaching their sense of self-worth to video games, or pretending not to care about anything as a self-defence mechanism, or some combination of both. A well-adjusted person doesn't get defensive about someone trying to moderate racism in a video game.

I don't think 578 is racist at all, I think he just likes video games a lot and is (irrationally) worried that more moderation will ruin his hobby.

I am a teacher in real life so recognising this mentality is literally part of my job.

Why are you assuming I'm an open minded person?

Your post is way off. Your question was a mocking attempt to those who got bullied, trying to twist it to know to assume that you know psychology. Unlike you, I have studied psychology. You take something very specific, like violence based bullying and try to make it a possible weapon by asking me if I got bullied in the most indirect way possible (similar to your viKiNgS aRe RaCiSts post) That's lack of empathy towards violence victims. Fortunately, I have never fallen victim of violence, physical or verbal. The question is, how did you end up using these 'sensitive' matters as a weapon in a discussion? I am not the one with the problem. Considering I am not the one who exaggerates the misfortune of people in online games who fall 'victims' of verbal abuse (most of them dont care because they understand its a video game and the smart ones realise its bait most of the time) and do not act like it's doom and gloom, especially in Mordhau, For Honor, Warband -since we talk medieval games and they ALL FEATURE disable chat- which can be self-moderated by closing the chat, your attempt to make me look like a childhood victim is extremely bad. Yet you are here:

-Using bullying as an indirect insult and then twisting it around to ''haha its my job to recognize that mentality'', no it's not, you're bad at it
-exaggerating lines like 'gas the jews' and tailoring examples to your own need to sound correct
-trying to serve social justice nobody asked you for in the most pathetic way possible
-you keep intellectualizing constantly, trying to undo your very bad ''gas the jews haha'' examples by telling us of your proffession, something nobody cares because like me, you are not important, you're just some guy in a forum about a video game, constantly denying the fact that the majority of people do NOT care about the blabla in a game because you feel the need to serve justice and 'oh god protect the poor people'.

Yet you're there judging me for defense mechanism, when I talk straight to the points I want to make and do not make pitiful indirect attempts to insulting anybody, like you. I guess I am the bad one in here. Good talk.

Lastly, your 'I dont care about anything' is a defense mechanism point, that's something you would need to talk with someone in physical form to observe many more things than just text speech.
I never said I do not carea bout anything, I just said that you are the ones feeding the trolls, reacting and crying all day about problems you will forget within half hour of logging off the game and overexaggerating about it. You give the morons power, because you take the bait. If you want to be angry at someone, look in the mirror. Or you know, take off your fake pride and enjoy the gameplay by disabling chat. Like normal human beings do. to the point of moderation: I dont care. I literally do not care if people moderate the chat. It won't ruin games for me because I dont chat in the first place. I do not buy games to play facebook. Maybe you should do the same.

tl;dr I can use disable chat if something offends me, I do not need some dude who wants to fill the blanks in his life moderating things for me. I'd rather answer myself. Its words by strangers on the internet. If you cannot take that, remove your router and go play tabletop games.

This is a long shot 578 but were you bullied at school?

Yes, I am racist because I like Vikings according to you, please log off.

You really aren't going to let that go even after 10 pages of me explaining that's not what I said?

This is how I correctly guessed you were bullied at school. Everything you argue for is solely based around the fact that you don't like being told what to do. I can understand that, neither do I, but for you it's like your entire worldview is built around immediately shutting your eyes and saying "I DON'T CARE, I DON'T CARE, DOESN'T AFFECT ME" the moment someone says you should be aware of some issue that affects you. At the same time you say "nobody cares, nobody cares" and attribute anything to the contrary as "just whiners, not trve gamers". I firmly believe that stupidity is a choice, and what you're doing is choosing to be stupid to protect your video game safe space. I know where this mentality comes from because I used to be like this, but it's still really pathetic. It's the insecure bullied kid mentality.

There is nothing per se wrong with edgy humour. I recently got muted for hiding the N word in my posts to mess with one of the moderators I know. The difference is that I make these jokes with people I know aren't actually racist. On the other hand a multiplayer lobby is a public place. If anyone is stupid enough to make unironic racist jokes where everyone can see then I am going to assume they are unironically racist. It doesn't matter if they are 12 years old or 50. They all know what racism is and are flaunting a system which they know won't ban or mute them if they continue.
Imagine you went to a multiplayer server and it was full of Nigerians with 300 ping shouting "KILL THE WHITE MAN", "BREED THE HONKY OUT OF EXISTENCE", "HOLOMODOR 2 PLS" whenever they kill you, and if you told them to shut up they just told you to take the joke and continued. Now imagine a game where most of the servers are like this, and the developers just throw their hands up and ignore it. Now imagine a community where people tell you to shut the hell up if you suggest the developers ban some of them.

Also, how is moderation going to affect you personally if you aren't a racist spammer?

I never said anything about 'true gamers' since that's  term forged by neckbeards, what the **** is a true gamer anyway? Oh wow dude, you hid the n word? Why dont you say it straight up if that's what you want to say? Scared of the banhammer? Indirect offenses? Sounds very kentucky james to me, especially the indirect part. Wonder if your students would be proud. lmao. Please dude, let's stop the discussion here, its obvious we will disagree forever and you constantly try to jump sides by doing and undoing. Your opinion of edgy humour is very different to my opinion of edgy humour, so I wont even discuss that. It's meaningless anyway, we will never find a middle ground.

 

[Cpt. Nemo]

Do you actually believe that people wanting to see hard Rs less often in their public matches are really just players that are upset because they aren't good? Are you ****posting?

Hardly ****posting, most people who are 'passionate' about serving social justice nobody asked for, are always bad players and people who do not care about learning. I am not talking about the dude who will defend someone, I am talking about the dudes who make it a crusade and feel like its their duty to scream 'toxic' at everything.

But that's not what you said. You weren't talking about crazy alt left pink hair meme people ranting about penises and no black people in Bohemia there. You clearly said that you believe that anyone that plays a game, and then stops playing and says they're tired of being flamed with edgy middle school tier "jokes", or toxicity, or whatever you want to call it, are only saying that so they don't have to admit they just suck at the game. Do you really think the average person loves being insulted in a videogame?

 

[Arcon]

It is easy, you tell anonymous kids behind a keyboard "People will get unhinged if you use XXXXX words" or say "XXXX things" and they do it.

Most of the time it is because it makes otherwise sane adults completely childlike and overly emotional in their response. Said 'adults' tend to go overboard in their response to these racist things because it brands them as 'the good guy' and makes them feel good about themselves thinking they are a champion for a cause.

I'm all for getting people who use these terms repeatedly banned or perma-muted, but please for the love of god try and be mature in response when you encounter it. 95% of the time it is some kid or 'adult' trying to get a rise out of people.

 

[Orion]

<snip>

Stop antagonizing him with this bullied-at-school bull****, Hinds. Targeting someone for what you think are their insecurities is a **** move and beside the point.

 

[578]

Do you actually believe that people wanting to see hard Rs less often in their public matches are really just players that are upset because they aren't good? Are you ****posting?

Hardly ****posting, most people who are 'passionate' about serving social justice nobody asked for, are always bad players and people who do not care about learning. I am not talking about the dude who will defend someone, I am talking about the dudes who make it a crusade and feel like its their duty to scream 'toxic' at everything.

But that's not what you said. You weren't talking about crazy alt left pink hair meme people ranting about penises and no black people in Bohemia there. You clearly said that you believe that anyone that plays a game, and then stops playing and says they're tired of being flamed with edgy middle school tier "jokes", or toxicity, or whatever you want to call it, are only saying that so they don't have to admit they just suck at the game. Do you really think the average person loves being insulted in a videogame?

You try to twist what I say, again, for your benefit. Any logical person understands that being indifferent does not mean that you love getting insulted. You just ignore it and dont participate in something that has nothing to do with the game you play. And yes, most people who are crusaders of SJW, are bad players most of the time. Thats an on-point observation I have made through many years of playing specific competitive games. Alt-left is irrelevant to this, most people who play games are not interested in politics in the given time that they play a video game, it's a vocal minority that cries toxicity at everything. Most logical people will defend someone if something goes too far, but holding a crusade towards anything that is even slightly trash talking says a lot. And almost always its unstable people. I mean, have you seen SJW speakers? Purple and blue 'I want to talk to the manager' haircut, surely you cant be sane and have such a bad taste at the same time. Jokes aside, stop acting like everything is black and white and stop trying to twist what I say. What I mentioned is correct. No wonder why there are no SJW pros in video games or anyone remotely respectable who belongs to the SJW community in the video game industry.

 

[Mr.Milker]

Damn. You truly are a Gamer.

 

[Sir Bob Knightley]

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,8.0.html

 

[Cpt. Nemo]

Do you actually believe that people wanting to see hard Rs less often in their public matches are really just players that are upset because they aren't good? Are you ****posting?

Hardly ****posting, most people who are 'passionate' about serving social justice nobody asked for, are always bad players and people who do not care about learning. I am not talking about the dude who will defend someone, I am talking about the dudes who make it a crusade and feel like its their duty to scream 'toxic' at everything.

But that's not what you said. You weren't talking about crazy alt left pink hair meme people ranting about penises and no black people in Bohemia there. You clearly said that you believe that anyone that plays a game, and then stops playing and says they're tired of being flamed with edgy middle school tier "jokes", or toxicity, or whatever you want to call it, are only saying that so they don't have to admit they just suck at the game. Do you really think the average person loves being insulted in a videogame?

You try to twist what I say, again, for your benefit. Any logical person understands that being indifferent does not mean that you love getting insulted. You just ignore it and dont participate in something that has nothing to do with the game you play. And yes, most people who are crusaders of SJW, are bad players most of the time. Thats an on-point observation I have made through many years of playing specific competitive games. Alt-left is irrelevant to this, most people who play games are not interested in politics in the given time that they play a video game, it's a vocal minority that cries toxicity at everything. Most logical people will defend someone if something goes too far, but holding a crusade towards anything that is even slightly trash talking says a lot. And almost always its unstable people. I mean, have you seen SJW speakers? Purple and blue 'I want to talk to the manager' haircut, surely you cant be sane and have such a bad taste at the same time. Jokes aside, stop acting like everything is black and white and stop trying to twist what I say. What I mentioned is correct. No wonder why there are no SJW pros in video games or anyone remotely respectable who belongs to the SJW community in the video game industry.

I'm not twisting anything. What you say here:

It's not a problem, you make it your problem by not playing and looking at the chat and then take it to the forums. I dont care if people talk crap in the chat, I play my game and have my fun. I dont buy the ''I stopped playing X game because of toxicity'', no, you stopped playing because you got bored or sucked at it. Not a potential long-term player anyway, just accusing the chat for the sake of complaining.

Is pretty clear. Again, you're talking about anyone that says they stop playing a game to due toxicity is actually lying and are just mad they suck at the game. Average Joes and Joelinas that liked a game but quit because of toxicity, not just people people itching to write a tumblr post about how offended they are and how epic gamers should be arrested. Then here, after I ask if you really think this:

Hardly ****posting, most people who are 'passionate' about serving social justice nobody asked for, are always bad players and people who do not care about learning. I am not talking about the dude who will defend someone, I am talking about the dudes who make it a crusade and feel like its their duty to scream 'toxic' at everything.

You said it's just SJWs. Then I used hyperbole to make my point that normal people don't like being flamed and insulted in their vidya. You either missed that entirely or worse, ignored it, and responded that no, normal people don't love being insulted, and only ever ignore it, and you say it's irrelevant. And then you said it isn't SJWs that are the problem, before saying it's SJWs that are the problem. (?????)

My entire point is that ordinary, regular, average people don't like being insulted and reading edgy racist **** in a game from strangers online. Toxic in game chat is relevant to the game. Most regular people won't bother saying anything about it in the chat, and might try to ignore it, but it gets draining game after game. They get tired of ignoring it, regardless of their skill and enjoyment from the game itself, and decide that it's better to just play something else where they might not get flamed by opponents or their own teammates when they want to have fun.

Do you think every complaint about some notoriously toxic game in a Steam review, on Reddit or wherever else online is just from some angery SJW that thinks the color white should be eliminated, or a genuine scrublord that's salty about getting stomped? Because that's what you're saying.

 

[monoolho]

Since this has pretty much devolved into a

feces spectacle

, I will try to go back into the topic itself. [inb4: I failed.]

I am a teacher in real life

Poor students.

I am curious as to why you think so. Why? And if you care enough to honestly answer me, I would also want to know your insight into what would be an ideal teacher in your opinion. Why? For science.


Hid these in spoilers to not overload the thread with more walls of texts, though I am certain people will naturally ignore everything I've written just because it's hidden in spoilers.

Spoiler: On identity and opinions

Yes, some games culturally attract certain kinds of identity groups. Medieval games tend to attract people who like medieval stuff. Sometimes this involves race, sometimes it involves religion. Sometimes it involves chivalry or ethnicity. It does not matter. This is not a problem, the problem is when people mistakenly believe that medieval themes, concepts are better than modern day ideas, just because the narratives they've incorporated into them make ideals out of these opinions and ideas. Like "medieval knights are so shiny, chivalrious and brave". That's bull****, they were men and women, humans, just like us. If your mother is a heartless *****, someone's mother was also heartless back then. If you like to avoid calling someone close to you because you're tired of having to show a positive face to them every single time, people also felt the same back then. Some ideals were spun as heroic, brave, better, perfect, ideal. But those are just narratives.

Some people fall in love with other similar narratives about greeks, romans, germans, nazis, panafricanism, or whatever, for the same reason - a misconstrued understanding and interpretation of the world - an erroneous point of view. Not because they are racists, bad people or dumb, but because they only actually listen to some particular sources, some particular narrators, and only watch some kinds of movies, or play some kinds of games. They embed themselves into that culture which neglects to show the other sides of the same culture.
Just like believing greeks are all gays because they had sex with "boys". It's a misconstruction and biased point of view of ancient greek culture. Some narratives spin history as one way, and omit or neglect the other stuff. We don't always have access to other sources, and people are not always open to empathize or think about different perspectives, because they like that particular point of view. And they are usually taught to refute different points of view as "wrong", because it is the easiest way to ascertain theirs as the "right one".

E.g.: My hair is better than your hair, because I like my hair and I don't like your hair, and I was born with my good hair, and you were born with your bad hair, therefore I am better than you.
Usually people are taught to express themselves like this, so they don't have to deal with the fact that nature screwed both of them over, and culture only praised one hair over the other. So they feel the need to stick to their "hair identity", either because it is the "norm", thus they are good, they are just like everyone else and that is good. Or because they are excluded, they are the "other", the ones with the bad hair, so they are forced to reinforce their own hair as good, despite culture saying it is bad, just to feel acknowledged as a group that is oppressed, and feel like they belong with each other, instead of just feeling like they belong nowhere.


The real fault is with the sources - who says what is good or bad? Who stipulates which values are good or bad? Why do they only showcase this, and hide that? These are questions we should always raise about everything we read, everything we watch.

And the actual problem is this: most people only get access to some of the sources most of the time.
Some people only watch Joseph Watson on Youtube and are led to believe they are being informed with "real news" that the mainstream media is hiding because SJW.
Some people only watch Anita Sarkeezian and are led to believe they are bringing a revolution to the world by retweeting.
Some people only watch John Oliver and think they are watching actual news.
Most people only accept whichever "news" fits best with their tastes and schedules, and take that as plain truth, and don't want to spend time and energy (mental and physical) to question that, because it is an uncomfortable and laborious "waste of time".

So what I mean is this: people take the narratives they think best suits them, and accept them as truth (e.g.: SJWS MAKE PROBLEMS OUT OF NONPROBLEMS; WHITE MALES ARE INHERENTLY EVIL AND DOMINATE THE WORLD SO THEY MUST BE CURBED), instead of questioning the very sources that narrate the events or opinions. Sometimes it's movies (knights/greek heroes were heroic), sometimes it's games (black wamen fighting for the third Reich; japanese redskins wearing full plate armor and killing people with warhammers), sometimes it's the news. And they just take that in, because they are taught to do so, they are induced to do so, and they don't want to waste time and energy criticising it.

Spoiler: On moderation and censoring

There is correlation between being bullied and being ANGERY on them interwebs, but correlation does not mean causation. There is correlation between GIT GUD and constant whining on them interwebs, but correlation does not mean causation. Just because it happens, it doesn't mean it's because that's the way people are.


Then again, "toxic contexts" do harm games, and some form of moderation is always required. But how do we assess that? Something that is in bad taste is highly subjective and context-dependent, sometimes political discourse is in bad taste, sometimes dad-jokes are in bad taste. We can't actually censor bad taste, but we should censor outright offensive stuff: the traditional racial slur and things we are accustomed to. But we can't censor too much, because that becomes a game in itself - finding the keywords the autocensor doesn't yet hide. And we can't give too much importance to that, because mostly people who do it (harassing and creating a toxic environment) are attention-seeking just for the sake of seeking attention. Give too much attention to them, and the tides turn, they become the victims...

As I said previously: we can't protect everyone from ever feeling offended by anything. That's a given from life - it is the way it is, some people offend, some people get offended by. It's one of life's little problems, and to try and diminish that, automated censors help a bit. Yet we need moderation, some people to outright eliminate bad community behaviour, but that has to depend on the server side: admins and mods appointed to do that in matches.

However, we can't have admins and mods in EVERY MATCH EVER, that's why the mute/kick features have a good function, so we can give the freedom to "unmoderated contexts" to democratically moderate themselves. It's not perfect, of course, but it is still better than totalitarian oversight over any and everything (which is humanly impossible), or complete censorship of anything other than greetings and in-game predefined chat lines (like ace combat 7 multiplayer).