Information about developments at snowballing problem

Users who are viewing this thread

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
[...]
A version of this in vanilla even if simplified (just a + or - bonus speed for friendly/unfriendly territory) would help a alot the game balance, didn't tested that far in my current save to be sure but it seems to be helping reducing snowballing too

I absolutely agree. Perhaps in parallel you could create a maximum level perk in Scouting like f.e. "Relentless force", so that these penalties over enemy terrain would be slightly less punitive.
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
I absolutely agree. Perhaps in parallel you could create a maximum level perk in Scouting like f.e. "Relentless force", so that these penalties over enemy terrain would be slightly less punitive.
Oh that would be awesome and give more use to scouting, nice idea about the perk, would synergize very well with the game design :grin:
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
[...]
It seems this is a good addition to game with a simple touch. However if I suggest this probably it will not be accepted because in our game there is no clear info which map position belongs to which kingdom. Maybe 10-15 radius can solve it. [...]

More than a radius for circular action, in fact, I say this because some areas with inconsistencies could appear. For this reason I ask, why don't you take note of the Vesper_ map and divide it by sectors as well? In my eyes the map reflects a good sectorial distribution of the territory taking into account the orography where this penalties could be applicated in a consistent way.

cMnPPMp.jpg


And by raising the bet you would have a viable option to create a political map where to shape and at the same time show to player all those calculations behind the scenes (economy, wars, loyalty, etc...).
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
More than a radius for circular action, in fact, I say this because some areas with inconsistencies could appear. For this reason I ask, why don't you take note of the Vesper_ map and divide it by sectors as well? In my eyes the map reflects a good sectorial distribution of the territory taking into account the orography where this penalties could be applicated in a consistent way.

cMnPPMp.jpg


And by raising the bet you would have a viable option to create a political map where to shape and at the same time show to player all those calculations behind the scenes (economy, wars, loyalty, etc...).

Good god this! Kinda shocked that Factions dont "know what land is theirs" as thats generally what was fought over tooth and nail. Who owns what.
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
More than a radius for circular action, in fact, I say this because some areas with inconsistencies could appear. For this reason I ask, why don't you take note of the @Vesper_ map and divide it by sectors as well? In my eyes the map reflects a good sectorial distribution of the territory taking into account the orography where this penalties could be applicated in a consistent way.
And by raising the bet you would have a viable option to create a political map where to shape and at the same time show to player all those calculations behind the scenes (economy, wars, loyalty, etc...).
@Piconi also have some ideas about the political map which I told him no many times :smile:
But this aside, I think it's possible to create "bounding" boxes for the regions. They won't be 1-1 matching because of their shapes, but it could at least give an estimation for calculations. i.e. if I'm standing X something and Y something I can check where I'm standing at and which faction owns that region
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Although the borders as we know them are a projection of the State in concept, the game would suit this type of territorial delimitation as the Roman limes & provinces very nicely in my eyes.

@Piconi also have some ideas about the political map which I told him no many times :smile:
But this aside, I think it's possible to create "bounding" boxes for the regions. They won't be 1-1 matching because of their shapes, but it could at least give an estimation for calculations. i.e. if I'm standing X something and Y something I can check where I'm standing at and which faction owns that region
Exaclty!
 

Piconi

Fashionista
Section Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
For this reason I ask, why don't you take note of the @Vesper_ map and divide it by sectors as well?
I honestly doubt we will see an official implementation of this, but i guess if anyone would know and be the one we pray to for this, it's Emrozdemir.

I've already had a chat with @Bloc and @Vesper_ , so i got much help from Vesper, and we now have all the regions nicely separated based on his map (without the unwakable area), even appropriately named (by town and castle).
Now when we have all the preparations we need (only the resolution of each region needs be scaled down by much probably, and see which transparency works best, but it's all a non-issue), the big bump on the road is - what next?
I have many specific questions as well.
All that and
@Piconi also have some ideas about the political map which I told him no many times
:smile:
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
First 20 Year Test Patch 1.5.7

Year 10 Year 20
Aserai 23 27
Battania 29 37
Khuzuit 34 33
N Empire 14 13
S Empire 11 7
Sturgia 23 22
Vlandia 18 14
W Empire 22 19

HG0mV.png

 
Last edited:

geala

Sergeant at Arms
Mexxico, as far as i understood that mod separates the speed penality into ownership and culture (-0.5 each for a total or 1 or +0.5 each if it's your culture and faction) so in the example that the khuzait takes Amprella they would have +0.5 speed for owning it but -0.5 for different culture thus nullifing their advantage in speed around Amprela while the N-empire suffers the same inverted (+0.5 cultural affiliation and -0.5 enemy territory) around Amprella too.

How the mod displays it is in the speed summary UI with cultural affiliation and enemy/friendly territory, Vlandia inside it's own territory has both so +1 speed but if they are moving through Battania while at war they get a -1 penality while the Battanians get +1 so they can move faster to defend and force enemies into decisive battles and it helps alot with the problem of armies hoping around never facing each other because they can run from stronger forces most of the time even while invading.

A version of this in vanilla even if simplified (just a + or - bonus speed for friendly/unfriendly territory) would help a alot the game balance, didn't tested that far in my current save to be sure but it seems to be helping reducing snowballing too

I used the mod (Unfriendly Territory) for some time in older versions, and as long as I did not interfer, there was not much advance of the Khuzaits against NE. It needed a lot of time till they got their first city (Amprela, as always). Then I joined NE as mercenary and got -1 around Amprela while the Khuzait stacks did not show anything. So the mod worked in case of Khuzaits probably, but not for me as part of the NE military. Perhaps it worked only for vassals? Did not try it out.

If the mod would work as described, it would be a great addition, and, as Terco_Viejo said, a good playground to be influenced via perks.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Here are mine, twenty years, 1.5.7. Save games available if you want to examine the world state.

Test 1Test 2Test 3
Aserai231221
Battania437116
Khuzait504355
Northern Empire1101
Southern Empire1313
Sturgia5413
Vlandia39933
Western Empire1331
 
Last edited:

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
@Apocal 's tests have some pretty bad snowball scores; 89, 116, and 67. Can you upload the what the maps looked like?

Just finished a 10 hour run at normal fastest speed (is it x3?) to make sure going faster had no impact, have the save if wanted. First time I've seen Vlandia totally wiped out.

1.57​
Test 2 20 yrsTest 2 20 yr Strength
Aserai
23​
7044​
Battania
46​
10012​
Khuzait
44​
10046​
Northern
7​
3887​
Southern
12​
3406​
Western
23​
6077​
Sturgia
19​
7046​
Vlandia
0​
604​
Snowball score
62​


Dv4lK.jpg
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
It seems we will get a bit higher average snowball score at 1.5.7 compared to 1.5.6 somehow. Maybe around 65.

Maybe trying to have longer wars (and more logical tributes, kingdoms which lost territories do not want tribute now mostly they pay) effected it badly. Will check it.

I will collect all test results soon. More samples are better.
 
More than a radius for circular action, in fact, I say this because some areas with inconsistencies could appear. For this reason I ask, why don't you take note of the Vesper_ map and divide it by sectors as well? In my eyes the map reflects a good sectorial distribution of the territory taking into account the orography where this penalties could be applicated in a consistent way.

cMnPPMp.jpg


And by raising the bet you would have a viable option to create a political map where to shape and at the same time show to player all those calculations behind the scenes (economy, wars, loyalty, etc...).
That's what we need. I think bonus / penalty should be applied by culture rather than ownership though. Obviously we need a way to change culture over time as well.
 

Sarissofoi

Veteran
M&BWBWF&S
Its probably because AI upgrade more to Cav now and victorious AI update to cavalry more so end running cavalry armies.
Notice that factions that snowball are Khuzait(Cav) and Battania or Vlandia(both Cav heavy but facing each other). Especially Battania vs Vlandia is all or nothing.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
@Apocal 's tests have some pretty bad snowball scores; 89, 116, and 67. Can you upload the what the maps looked like?

Just finished a 10 hour run at normal fastest speed (is it x3?) to make sure going faster had no impact, have the save if wanted. First time I've seen Vlandia totally wiped out.

1.57​
Test 2 20 yrsTest 2 20 yr Strength
Aserai
23​
7044​
Battania
46​
10012​
Khuzait
44​
10046​
Northern
7​
3887​
Southern
12​
3406​
Western
23​
6077​
Sturgia
19​
7046​
Vlandia
0​
604​
Snowball score
62​


Dv4lK.jpg

This is something I have been always curious about... I usually use x20 time speed multiply but it looks like not much changed in your test.



It seems we will get a bit higher average snowball score at 1.5.7 compared to 1.5.6 somehow. Maybe around 65.

Maybe trying to have longer wars (and more logical tributes, kingdoms which lost territories do not want tribute now mostly they pay) effected it badly. Will check it.

I will collect all test results soon. More samples are better.

It is weird because there are some great campaigns where snowballing is really low, while other campaigns where snowballing is much worse than ever, strange...

I have the feeling that aside from longer wars (actually something positive in my view because too short wars are probably as bad as snowballing), maybe it is something related to new recruiting system. All factions having now more cavalry units which are not easy to get (except for Khuzaits who get them at tier2), could mean that factions which are winning wars, are able to amass more cavalry units than these ones which are losing battles and having to create new recruit armies with tons of infantry.

I have also noticed that there is something with the current formula for declaring war which probably brings a bigger snowballing. Kingdoms losing some battles and getting a bad strength:fiefs(prosperity sum in 1.5.6) ratio, are getting tons of war declarations. What I am usually seeing:

1- Khuzaits declare war on SE and they are fighting a 1vs1 war.
2- Khuzaits are able to win 2 or 3 field battles, and the SE strength power goes drastically down.
3- One or two new kingdoms declare war on SE.

I am not sure how could this get changed though... First, because it makes sense that other kingdoms try to take the chance to attack a weak kingdom, second because it is good for making kingdoms with much settlements looking more appealing to attack.

Concerning war length and snowballing, before 1.5.6 we had a pretty good system which worked in this way:

- Vlandia and Sturgia start at war.
- Battania declares war on Sturgia.
- Sturgia rapidly makes peace with Battania while Vlandia war lasts for a long time.

Then in 1.5.6 we had something like this:

- Vlandia and Sturgia start at war.
- Vlandia and Sturgia make peace for no reason after some few days, even when they were fighting an 1v1 war.
- Vlandia and Sturgia declare war to other kingdoms.

In 1.5.7 we have a similar system than in 1.5.6 but now most of wars last for longer, even if a kingdom is fighting against two. I liked a lot when in 1.5.5 some kingdoms had a rival kingdom which they were usually at war. It was something like:

- NE was usually at war with Khuzaits.
- WE was usually at war with Battania.
- SE was usually at war with Aserai.
- Vlandia was usually at war with Sturgia.

I am not sure if it was just coincidence or if we had something in the code which made this happen, and I liked it a lot.

Anyway, I think that War/Peace declarations should work in this way:

- If there is an 1v1 war, kingdoms rarely try to make peace, except if one of them is losing really hard or, after some relevant time past +50 days or so).
- If a kingdom is at war, it rarely declare a new war.
- If a kingdom is fighting an 1v1 war and gets a new war declaration, the kingdom should try to make peace with one of them ASAP.

This looks easy to say but probably really hard to code :sad: , but if possible, it would be great.

Anyway, I personally would like to see less wars and a slower pace. I have no problem if kingdoms would be in peace for 30-50 days, and we would have less war declarations and an overall slower pace (the passive troops XP cheat for the AI would have to be nerfed for +tier3 units, otherwise kingdoms in peace could be able to amass full elite armies).

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Sarissofoi

Veteran
M&BWBWF&S
Bring NAPs and Alliances back. Why Bannerlord diplomacy is practically non existent when it was working in Warband is beyond me.
There is also still thing with PartyTemplates and free units that defeated lords respawn(they are not equal). And of course question of asymmetric troop tree branches.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Bring NAPs and Alliances back. Why Bannerlord diplomacy is practically non existent when it was working in Warband is beyond me.
There is also still thing with PartyTemplates and free units that defeated lords respawn(they are not equal). And of course question of asymmetric troop tree branches.

You are probably thinking about diplomacy mod. Warband’s diplomacy is even less complex than Bannerlord’ one.
 
Top Bottom