Information about developments at snowballing problem

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mexxico

Sergeant Knight
@mexxico

I am making some fast campaing tests (5 years or so) and things look way better than before. On the other hand, Khuzaits are still pretty much the ones deciding against which kingdom going to war, and having less 1v2 wars than everyone and longer peace than any other kingdom. The change you mentioned about prosperity being only taken into account in the formula is still not in place right?

I think that we are better than ever with this issue and just some few things could completely fixed snowballing and Khuzaits being OP. Thanks!

Today during examining war peace codes I see that factions evaluate enemy settlements by only their prosperity. Basics of these codes are not mine I am just going over them since 1.5.1 (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/diplomacy-developments.429850/) to make war / peace declerations more logical which also effects snowballing positively. I see too many weird things since going over these codes and fixed some. This only caring prosperity as a value measurement is another problem which causes factions to decleare more wars towards Empire factions because of their high prosperity towns compared others. Okay prosperity is something important but caring only prosperity without any addition make things worse. Enemy settlements should be counted as X + prosperity instead of directly using prosperity otherwise if a faction have 6 towns with 4000 prosperity has a value of 24000 while Khuzaits have 6 towns with 3000 prosperity has a value of 18000. So Khuzaits attract other facitons less and they are attacked less similarly Aserai / Sturgia too also castles are nearly not counted because their maximum prosperity is mostly 1000. If a faction has bigger prosperity / strength ratio generally they are attacked more. I will make this calculation (prosperity * 0.25 + (town -> 2000 , castle -> 1000)) per each fief. I do not know if I can add this fix to 1.5.7 or not because its testes are started.

I said when I realized that problem (4-5 days ago) already 1.5.7 was at tests so this improvement will come with 1.5.8, here are code changes (I did not need to check how Valueofsettlements variable is set before because I believed it shows real value when I see its name but when I see it is only bounded to prosperity I understaood what is going on and why Khuzait faces usually less wars) By the way you become a pro and can understand which change is added by only looking what NPC kingdoms do (as war / peace). Congrats:smile:

en9HV.png


WeQPk.png
 
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Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I said when I realized that problem (4-5 days ago) already 1.5.7 was at tests so this improvement will come with 1.5.8, here are code changes (I did not need to check how Valueofsettlements variable is set before because I believed it shows real value when I see its name but when I see it is only bounded to prosperity I understaood what is going on and why Khuzait faces usually less wars) By the way you become a pro and can understand which change is added by only looking what NPC kingdoms do (as war / peace). Congrats:smile:

en9HV.png


WeQPk.png


I am going to change this for my game because I cannot wait for 1.5.8 :razz: . Thanks for this and for the amazing work.
 

a_ver_est

Knight
It didn't make sense to me. Why would a party slow down in enemy territory?

Because an army moving through an enemy territory need to be cautious, send more scouts, increase number of guards, etc so slowing it somewhat is a good abstraction/simplification of all this things.

And if I understood correctly the game mechanics I guess that it will also help somewhat with the snowball problem.
 

sniparsexe

Knight at Arms
Here is my first 20 year test
FactionCityCastle
Aserai66
Battania21
Khuzait1624
N.E44
S.E01
W.E910
Sturgia31
Vlandia1320
map for the test:
XOmqN.png

this looks like a bit unlucky run. the Khuzaits started dominating early that's why they took so many lands afterward I guess
 
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GeluHUN

Veteran
Just for confirmation: if I speed up the time to 16th (instead of the default 4th) it won't effect testing, am I right? My own tests show this as ok, but maybe someone somewhere knows something different?
 

sniparsexe

Knight at Arms
Just for confirmation: if I speed up the time to 16th (instead of the default 4th) it won't effect testing, am I right? My own tests show this as ok, but maybe someone somewhere knows something different?
campaign.set_main_party_attackable 0

campaign.multiply_campaign_speed 10

campaign.move_time_forward 40320
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
Just for confirmation: if I speed up the time to 16th (instead of the default 4th) it won't effect testing, am I right? My own tests show this as ok, but maybe someone somewhere knows something different?

1 week ago I see that it effected caravan death ratio, I was collecting info for what is average death ratio per caravan and I see that when I speed up 20x caravans caught / killed more (I will make a study on it) so it can effect who to catch who maybe. But till now we assumed it does not effect anything major. I will make some study on it. Normally it should not effect anything major. If it effects it seems we have a bug in system.

Of course if we run tests in 5x or 10x instead of 20x maybe we can get more accurate info but this takes too much time.
 
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geala

Sergeant at Arms
So its harder to take but its not harder to retake.

Concerning the mod "Unfriendly Territory", that aspect of the mod did not work for me when I tried it. At least not as mercenary. I got severe movement penalties serving NE near original NE settlements conquered by the Khuzaits. I had to deinstall the mod.
 

VineFynn

Recruit
WBNW
It didn't make sense to me. Why would a party slow down in enemy territory? Not knowing the area? What about for the kingdoms that lost their own territory? For example why would a Khuzait party slow down near Chaikand if they have lost it to Southern Empire? They still know the area. The people in the area would still have Khuzait culture so they won't slow the party down too. I don't see a logical explanation of why that would happen.

If we are looking for ways to give castles a purpose, they can shoot arrows at the enemy and damage them when parties are too close. This will cause problems and design change because you have to go in a castle to siege it in the game, which doesn't make sense, so that needs to change. We should be able to initiate a siege from a safe distance for this solution to work. And castles can have a small patrolling party(controlled by AI) in it and go out and raid smaller enemy parties when they get too close or attack bound villages. That patrolling party also can deal with the looters around too. This could let us use cavalry for castle garrison as well.
How on earth would castles shoot arrows at enemy armies? Have they developed rocket propelled arrows?
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
I want to ask something who uses "Unfirendly Territory" mod. It says even Khuzait take N.Empire town Amprela Khuzait will still get 0.5 speed penalty when passing through that town's lands. Isn't that a bit weird? How can we tell this to player? You are passing through your own town and normally it is your territory currently but your speed is decreasing. I understand it is done for helping N.Empire to take this town back but this is weird hard to tell player what is going on. How player will understand he will lose speed from passing through town X? It is seem green it is seen as his own kingdom fief but his party is losing speed. I think it is problematic. @Sarissofoi @Terco_Viejo @vonbalt I see you are using & like that mod thats why mentioned.

Second question : Does this penalty only applied to armies or all lord parties?
 
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Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Personally, as an implementation of this mod, I am only interested in penalizing an army's movement (blue) over enemy ground (red).
 

cyberonn

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Because an army moving through an enemy territory need to be cautious, send more scouts, increase number of guards, etc so slowing it somewhat is a good abstraction/simplification of all this things.
OK that makes sense. Thanks.
How on earth would castles shoot arrows at enemy armies? Have they developed rocket propelled arrows?
When the enemy gets too close. So enemy parties won't be able to wait at the gate of a castle or a city. Small parties can escape to a castle and take a shelter in front of castle walls while chasing enemy gets a rain of arrows.
 

Sarissofoi

Veteran
M&BWBWF&S
Concerning the mod "Unfriendly Territory", that aspect of the mod did not work for me when I tried it. At least not as mercenary. I got severe movement penalties serving NE near original NE settlements conquered by the Khuzaits. I had to deinstall the mod.
It looks like it not working properly with 1.5.7 sadly.

Second question : Does this penalty only applied to armies or all lord parties?

It should be affecting parties. Buff/debuff is made from two factors:
>who controls territory
>what culture this territory is
Example.
War between X and Y, Z neutral
Defender X(X travel on his own territory):
X faction ownership + X(home) culture territory= Defensive buff +1(easy movement on controlled and friendly territory)
X faction ownership +Z(neutral) culture territory =Defensive buff +0.5(easy movement on controlled territory)
X faction ownership +Y(enemy) culture territory =No defensive buff
Offender X(X move into enemy territory)
Y faction ownership + X(former home) culture territory = No Offensive debuff (enemy control it but population is friendly)
Y faction ownership + Z(neutral) culture territory = Offensive debuff -0.5 (enemy control it, population neutral)
Y faction ownership +Y(enemy) culture territory =Offensive debuff -1 (Enemy control and hostile population)
Neutral X(X move through neutral territory)
Z faction ownership + X(former home) culture territory = Travel buff 0.5(friendly population)
Z faction ownership + Z(neutral) culture territory = No Travel buff
Z faction ownership +Y(hostile) culture territory = Travel debuff 0.5(hostile population)

I guess it could be tricky for empire faction fighting each other as they share culture so they would be always in friendly territory as long as they fight on empire lands. Same goes for mercenaries or player kingdom and companion armies OR DEFECTED LORDS(I am not sure how it would work in this case).
At last that how it was originally. I didn't use it with 1.5.6 because it wasn't updated.
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
Mexxico, as far as i understood that mod separates the speed penality into ownership and culture (-0.5 each for a total or 1 or +0.5 each if it's your culture and faction) so in the example that the khuzait takes Amprella they would have +0.5 speed for owning it but -0.5 for different culture thus nullifing their advantage in speed around Amprela while the N-empire suffers the same inverted (+0.5 cultural affiliation and -0.5 enemy territory) around Amprella too.

How the mod displays it is in the speed summary UI with cultural affiliation and enemy/friendly territory, Vlandia inside it's own territory has both so +1 speed but if they are moving through Battania while at war they get a -1 penality while the Battanians get +1 so they can move faster to defend and force enemies into decisive battles and it helps alot with the problem of armies hoping around never facing each other because they can run from stronger forces most of the time even while invading.

A version of this in vanilla even if simplified (just a + or - bonus speed for friendly/unfriendly territory) would help a alot the game balance, didn't tested that far in my current save to be sure but it seems to be helping reducing snowballing too
 
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