Historical Discussion
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HannesFury
Sergeant Knight
Korrekt.
Just as with the term -mail/-maille, -brynja refers to the type of material itself,
whilst ring- is a designation of the kind of armor.
Just as with the term -mail/-maille, -brynja refers to the type of material itself,
whilst ring- is a designation of the kind of armor.
In Serbia we have three words brnja (Брња), veriža (Верижа), pancir (Панцир), frst two are general terms for mail the third one refers for mail shirts. Similarity in names brynja/brnja is interesting.Hagbard said:
FrisianDude
Archduke
Had I not read the previous two posts I'd have assumed 'brynja' was the name for the type of armour. What with it being so similar to English 'byrnie'
Nice assumption and I think you are probably right. Brynja, brnja and byrnie are probably the names for that exact type of mail armor.
Dear Dragomir, analogically and in Russian: Kolchuga (Кольчуга)Dragomir said:
In italian is cotta di maglia, later evoluted in the so called usbergo. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents too 
Éadric
Knight at Arms
C_Ronin_Rico said:In italian is cotta di maglia, later evoluted in the so called usbergo. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents too
Usbergo is a loan from a Germanic language, no doubt. Compare an old Dutch word for 'armour': halsberg, which literally means 'protection of the neck'. The neck meaning one's life.
FrisianDude
Archduke
And halsberg and usbergo are obviously related to hauberk.
I have few questions about historical details in new patch 0.84:
1) Why class "Berserkr" have not spears? Class "wolf skins" (Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfhéðinn)) were fighting with spears.
Why class "Berserkr" have not shields (for example, small shields)? Some berserkers can fight with shields! Even those who are gnawed their shield, according to the saga, must were have this shield, all the same, and not the fact that they are always and all his gnawed.
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
2) Why "Boyar Son" on English language, but not Russian as others names of classes of Rus (Strelec, Druzhinnik, Knyaz)??
This class need/should to call as simply "Boyarin" or "Knyazhiy muzh" (But not "Boyarskiy syn")
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%8F%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5
Early sons of boyars in a life/in everyday life called "boyarin" or "knyazhiy muzh" as military class and called as "boyarskiy syn" simply in peaceful life.
Only near 1259 year their begin to call "boyarskiy syn" as military class too.
Answer by Moeckerkalfie:
1) Why class "Berserkr" have not spears? Class "wolf skins" (Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfhéðinn)) were fighting with spears.
Why class "Berserkr" have not shields (for example, small shields)? Some berserkers can fight with shields! Even those who are gnawed their shield, according to the saga, must were have this shield, all the same, and not the fact that they are always and all his gnawed.
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
2) Why "Boyar Son" on English language, but not Russian as others names of classes of Rus (Strelec, Druzhinnik, Knyaz)??
This class need/should to call as simply "Boyarin" or "Knyazhiy muzh" (But not "
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%8F%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5
on English: "Boyar sons were on Rus in XIII-XVIII centuries. ....In first this termin mentioned in the "Novgorod First Chronicle" (or "The Chronicle of Novgorod") under 1259 year".
Early sons of boyars in a life/in everyday life called "boyarin" or "knyazhiy muzh" as military class and called as "boyarskiy syn" simply in peaceful life.
Only near 1259 year their begin to call "boyarskiy syn" as military class too.
Answer by Moeckerkalfie:
Moeckerkalfie
I decided to write a bit more about what I know about historical berserkers, or at least how they were seen by the people who wrote the sagas. It got a bit longer so I rather post it here, than filling the patch discussion with it:
The main problem with the beserker is that the meaning of the word shifted so much. For all I know the name was used first for a group of southern germanic Chatti warriors meeting the romans who actually wore animal skins and fought in a frenzy.
It seems that this kind of berserkers were still around in the later viking age, although I can not remember animal skins being used. Instead they were "ordinary" people who just were so aggressive that in some saga they are required to leave the ships once in a while to wrestle with trees to calm down. It was also said that iron couldn't hurt a true berserker.
I have also read about a second type of berserker being body guards for renowned leaders. Sometimes it is mentioned that these wore animal masks, but I only read about this rarely and don't know much about this type. Still it is probably obvious that for this task it would be a bad choice to ask somebody who wrestles with trees if he would like to be around somebody whom you wan't to stay alive.
Then I also remember a last type of berserker that is seen very negatively, appearing in the late viking age. Appearantly the custom of these times was that free men could be demanded a duel from, and if they declined they were seen as honourless. The duel was not for live and death, but with the weapons used it wasn't rare to die, and since the winner was seen as more manly he inherited all of the losers posessions. And so some people who were reckless and had nothing to lose just demanded duels from everybody they hoped to win against, and these people were usually despised. They didn't actually have to go into a battle frenzy, their most striking feature is rather how little they cared for their fellow people, and they just took what they wanted from them, and if it was reclaimed a duel followed. And since many people didn't just want to die for a necklace or whatever they rather just gave it (although this was unmanly). Now of course one can hardly put all those people mentioned in the sagas into one of these classifications, but this last type of "bully-berserker" seems to be very usual for the later Viking age, and often there are many of these three traits in those berserkers mentioned.
Now so I can keep up with Ulfvaldr, and you see I didn't make it all up I can quote a bit from Egils Saga from the Icelandic Saga Database. In the first bit it is mentioned how Thorolf, Egils brother, is overcome by bloodlust when fighting against the Scots as a mercenary of the English king [chapter 53]:
Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail-coat and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. Then Thorolf drew his sword and dealt blows on either side, his men also charging. Many Britons and Scots fell, but some turned and fled.
Now it could be argued how berserk-y this deed was, but Thorolf is not mentioned being a berserker, so this has to be seen as normal behaviour.
On the next day of the same battle though, Thorolf is killed, and his brother Egil becomes equally furious about this, so he follows his example [chapter 54]:
And now the armies closed, and soon the battle waxed fierce. Thorolf pressed eagerly forward, causing his standard to be borne onwards along the woodside; he thought to go so far forward as to turn upon the Scotch king's division behind their shields. His own men held their shields before them; they trusted to the wood which was on their right to cover that side. So far in advance went Thorolf that few of his men were before him. But just when he was least on his guard, out leapt from the wood earl Adils and his followers. They thrust at Thorolf at once with many halberds, and there by the wood he fell. But Thorfid, who bore the standard, drew back to where the men stood thicker. Adils now attacked them, and a fierce contest was there. The Scots shouted a shout of victory, as having slain the enemy's chieftain.
This shout when Egil heard, and saw Thorolf's standard going back, he felt sure that Thorolf himself would not be with it. So he bounded thither over the space between the two divisions. Full soon learnt he the tidings of what was done, when he came to his men. Then did he keenly spur them on to the charge, himself foremost in the van. He had in his hand his sword Adder. Forward Egil pressed, and hewed on either hand of him, felling many men. Thorfid bore the standard close after him, behind the standard followed the rest. Right sharp was the conflict there. Egil went forward till he met earl Adils. Few blows did they exchange ere earl Adils fell, and many men around him. But after the earl's death his followers fled. Egil and his force pursued, and slew all whom they overtook; no need there to beg quarter. Nor stood those Scotch earls long, when they saw the others their fellows fly; but at once they took to their heels.
But neither of both are seen as berserkers at this time. Indeed the only person in this saga who is consiered a berserker is a man named Ljot, who is the type of "bully-berserker" I described earlier. But he makes the mistake of demanding a relative of Egil, Fridgeir, for a duel and Egil fights in his place [chapter 67]:
These were the laws of wager of battle in those times, that when one man challenged another on any claim, and the challenger gained the victory, then he should have as prize of victory that which he had claimed in his challenge. But if he were vanquished, then should he ransom himself for such price as should be fixed. But if he were slain on the field, then had he forfeited all his possessions, and he who slew him in the combat should take his inheritance. This was also law, that if a foreigner died who had no heir in the land, then that inheritance fell to the king's treasury.
They now start, and soon come to the island. There was a fair plain near the sea, which was to be the place of combat. The ground was marked out by stones lying round in a ring. Soon came thither Ljot and his party. Then he made him ready for the combat. He had shield and sword. Ljot was a man of vast size and strong. And as he came forward on the field to the ground of combat, a fit of Berserk fury seized him; he began to bellow hideously, and bit his shield. Fridgeir was not a tall man; he was slenderly built, comely in face, not strong. He had not been used to combats. But when Egil saw Ljot, then he sang a stave:
The fight is a bit longer, but eventually Egil just hacks of one of Ljots legs which ends the berserkers life, and Egil has fun making funny little poems about it.
The main problem with the beserker is that the meaning of the word shifted so much. For all I know the name was used first for a group of southern germanic Chatti warriors meeting the romans who actually wore animal skins and fought in a frenzy.
It seems that this kind of berserkers were still around in the later viking age, although I can not remember animal skins being used. Instead they were "ordinary" people who just were so aggressive that in some saga they are required to leave the ships once in a while to wrestle with trees to calm down. It was also said that iron couldn't hurt a true berserker.
I have also read about a second type of berserker being body guards for renowned leaders. Sometimes it is mentioned that these wore animal masks, but I only read about this rarely and don't know much about this type. Still it is probably obvious that for this task it would be a bad choice to ask somebody who wrestles with trees if he would like to be around somebody whom you wan't to stay alive.
Then I also remember a last type of berserker that is seen very negatively, appearing in the late viking age. Appearantly the custom of these times was that free men could be demanded a duel from, and if they declined they were seen as honourless. The duel was not for live and death, but with the weapons used it wasn't rare to die, and since the winner was seen as more manly he inherited all of the losers posessions. And so some people who were reckless and had nothing to lose just demanded duels from everybody they hoped to win against, and these people were usually despised. They didn't actually have to go into a battle frenzy, their most striking feature is rather how little they cared for their fellow people, and they just took what they wanted from them, and if it was reclaimed a duel followed. And since many people didn't just want to die for a necklace or whatever they rather just gave it (although this was unmanly). Now of course one can hardly put all those people mentioned in the sagas into one of these classifications, but this last type of "bully-berserker" seems to be very usual for the later Viking age, and often there are many of these three traits in those berserkers mentioned.
Now so I can keep up with Ulfvaldr, and you see I didn't make it all up I can quote a bit from Egils Saga from the Icelandic Saga Database. In the first bit it is mentioned how Thorolf, Egils brother, is overcome by bloodlust when fighting against the Scots as a mercenary of the English king [chapter 53]:
Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail-coat and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. Then Thorolf drew his sword and dealt blows on either side, his men also charging. Many Britons and Scots fell, but some turned and fled.
Now it could be argued how berserk-y this deed was, but Thorolf is not mentioned being a berserker, so this has to be seen as normal behaviour.
On the next day of the same battle though, Thorolf is killed, and his brother Egil becomes equally furious about this, so he follows his example [chapter 54]:
And now the armies closed, and soon the battle waxed fierce. Thorolf pressed eagerly forward, causing his standard to be borne onwards along the woodside; he thought to go so far forward as to turn upon the Scotch king's division behind their shields. His own men held their shields before them; they trusted to the wood which was on their right to cover that side. So far in advance went Thorolf that few of his men were before him. But just when he was least on his guard, out leapt from the wood earl Adils and his followers. They thrust at Thorolf at once with many halberds, and there by the wood he fell. But Thorfid, who bore the standard, drew back to where the men stood thicker. Adils now attacked them, and a fierce contest was there. The Scots shouted a shout of victory, as having slain the enemy's chieftain.
This shout when Egil heard, and saw Thorolf's standard going back, he felt sure that Thorolf himself would not be with it. So he bounded thither over the space between the two divisions. Full soon learnt he the tidings of what was done, when he came to his men. Then did he keenly spur them on to the charge, himself foremost in the van. He had in his hand his sword Adder. Forward Egil pressed, and hewed on either hand of him, felling many men. Thorfid bore the standard close after him, behind the standard followed the rest. Right sharp was the conflict there. Egil went forward till he met earl Adils. Few blows did they exchange ere earl Adils fell, and many men around him. But after the earl's death his followers fled. Egil and his force pursued, and slew all whom they overtook; no need there to beg quarter. Nor stood those Scotch earls long, when they saw the others their fellows fly; but at once they took to their heels.
But neither of both are seen as berserkers at this time. Indeed the only person in this saga who is consiered a berserker is a man named Ljot, who is the type of "bully-berserker" I described earlier. But he makes the mistake of demanding a relative of Egil, Fridgeir, for a duel and Egil fights in his place [chapter 67]:
These were the laws of wager of battle in those times, that when one man challenged another on any claim, and the challenger gained the victory, then he should have as prize of victory that which he had claimed in his challenge. But if he were vanquished, then should he ransom himself for such price as should be fixed. But if he were slain on the field, then had he forfeited all his possessions, and he who slew him in the combat should take his inheritance. This was also law, that if a foreigner died who had no heir in the land, then that inheritance fell to the king's treasury.
They now start, and soon come to the island. There was a fair plain near the sea, which was to be the place of combat. The ground was marked out by stones lying round in a ring. Soon came thither Ljot and his party. Then he made him ready for the combat. He had shield and sword. Ljot was a man of vast size and strong. And as he came forward on the field to the ground of combat, a fit of Berserk fury seized him; he began to bellow hideously, and bit his shield. Fridgeir was not a tall man; he was slenderly built, comely in face, not strong. He had not been used to combats. But when Egil saw Ljot, then he sang a stave:
The fight is a bit longer, but eventually Egil just hacks of one of Ljots legs which ends the berserkers life, and Egil has fun making funny little poems about it.
Phalanx300
Banned
This is a nice site with a lot of references: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml
Does say though that they wore animal skins (at least there are references) and howled like animals. Also says the "Berzerkergang" also happened to ordinary people doing hard physical labour. Basicly having power humans shouldn't have (Are even modern examples for this). And being extremely exhausted and weak after Berserkergang.
Does say though that they wore animal skins (at least there are references) and howled like animals. Also says the "Berzerkergang" also happened to ordinary people doing hard physical labour. Basicly having power humans shouldn't have (Are even modern examples for this). And being extremely exhausted and weak after Berserkergang.
Moeckerkalfie
I remember Ulfvaldr had a few suggestions for the Rus faction, and I wonder what could be changed about it in general. I myself am not very familiar with Rus history, and only recently I had to be corrected by Dragomir about them still being able to speak their original swedish dialect. Maybe some of you who know more about the Rus could comment on the current faction structure. I understood the title boyar son for cavalry is not appropriate, what would be more suitable?
The Rubacha tunics and the hat Dragomir posted about have found a place on the to-do list already, but is there any other equipment that should be seen in their faction? Of course I can not promise that I manage to implement everything, and the to-do list has more pages already than I would be happy about, but getting a better which direction to work into can never hurt.
And Phalanx, didn't manage to read through that entire page yet, but I will try to find time for it soon. But I got the impression the berserker works quite well right now, if you tried playing as one you could just post your opinion on the 0.84 release thread.
The Rubacha tunics and the hat Dragomir posted about have found a place on the to-do list already, but is there any other equipment that should be seen in their faction? Of course I can not promise that I manage to implement everything, and the to-do list has more pages already than I would be happy about, but getting a better which direction to work into can never hurt.
And Phalanx, didn't manage to read through that entire page yet, but I will try to find time for it soon. But I got the impression the berserker works quite well right now, if you tried playing as one you could just post your opinion on the 0.84 release thread.
I think something to improve about Rus, are weapons. Swords mostly. When playing Rus i can only chose among Vikings or Engles swords. Maybe there should be a more specific choice according to the faction in general.
Phalanx300
Banned
Moeckerkalfie said:
I'm talking about accuracy. Which right now it isn't.
