Historical Discussion

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Dansk viking

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So, looking at some of Lindybeige's old videos, I stumble upon the one about spear usage. Lindybeige argues that the underarm spear would have been predominant - almost ruling out the overarm completely.

Now, from that I came across this video arguing that the overarm spear might be the only possibility in a tight formation (see for example the Bayeux Tapestry).

What do you guys think?

Currently Víkingr has underarm spear exclusively, both high and low. I wonder whether a third option might be possible. I'm thinking here mostly of the Shieldwall Event where it is evident that spears cannot be used in the front row; I wonder if an extra overarm mode might change that...
 

fysaga

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Dansk viking said:
So, looking at some of Lindybeige's old videos, I stumble upon the one about spear usage. Lindybeige argues that the underarm spear would have been predominant - almost ruling out the overarm completely.

Now, from that I came across this video arguing that the overarm spear might be the only possibility in a tight formation (see for example the Bayeux Tapestry).

What do you guys think?

Currently Víkingr has underarm spear exclusively, both high and low. I wonder whether a third option might be possible. I'm thinking here mostly of the Shieldwall Event where it is evident that spears cannot be used in the front row; I wonder if an extra overarm mode might change that...
I cannot watch the videos right now, but I have seen the one from Schola before. He seems far more informed than lindy who has been wrong on some subjects by now, so I would place more trust into Matt. On the subject of the animation, do we even have the capabilities to change this anymore ?
 

hrotha

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As much as I love Lindybeige, I tend to trust Matt Easton a lot more, largely because Lindybeige likes to think out loud basically so very often he's not talking about things he has direct experience with (Lloyd's method is valuable, it opens up new discussions and what not, but once they've been opened I find Matt's opinion usually carries more weight).

Lindybeige's point is fair: all other considerations aside, an underarm grip would seem to be more effective, since it gives you more reach and you can more easily target all parts of your enemy's body. But you can't leave out all those other considerations, after all. I don't think the artistic representations should be dismissed so easily, either.

Now, as for Víkingr... M&B spears bear so little resemblance to their real-world counterparts that I'm not sure anything could be done. But having the ability to change your grip and shorten your reach for close combat should come in handy and translate well enough into game mechanics, I guess.
 

Dansk viking

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Well, yes. I was talking theoretically - I doubt it'll happen, but if we did have an experienced modder on the case, perhaps one could use the same key as the horsemen "p", to change spear mode and, indeed, shorten the reach for close combat.

I wonder whether the hoplite fighting style (which I'd most definitely assume used overarm spear-thrusts in close quarters) was used in a Northern European shieldwall within our time-frame.
 

Éadric

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Just one of many contemporary examples:



And this reminds me of something that's been bothering me for a long time: the distinction in Víkingr between throwing spears and thrusting spears. There should only be spears of different lengths. Ideal would be to have your spear overarm (with the thumb inside, not outside like in Víkingr), with left mouse button to thrust and (say) shift + left mouse button to throw. If the spear's too long for proper throwing, and covers but a pitiful distance, that's on you. It would also mean you have to make sure you don't have a mate right behind you when you throw, lest you poke him with the butt of your spear.

But I'm afraid this thing I'm proposing is not feasible with M&B.
 

Scuba Steve

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If there's going to be a change to spear usage, is it possible to use Sahran's OSP code for spears? He made it so that overarm and underarm are usable without having to switch weapon modes, meaning that you effectively have an up attack which is overarm, and a down attack which is underarm. Makes spears much more viable, since at least the person who you're fighting against at least has to keep in mind of being able to block both directions if their shield breaks, instead of being able to block indefinitely by just holding down block.

At least then using "X" you could then perhaps shorten the grip of the spear, without having to resort to any other methods.
 

Aethel

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How accurate or authentic would a band of Norman mercenaries be, in the later part of Vikingr's timeframe?
How easily could it fit into Vikingr's "world" of clans?

ThegnAnsgar and I have been talking about the possibility of a new Norman clan based around this concept, inspired by the Norman bands that fought in Spain, Italy, Greece, and those that most definitely returned home for William's 1066 invasion.

We were thinking of building upon these concepts:
- Lots of "second sons" as in lesser sons of Norman nobles who have nothing to inherit, and is probably one of the reasons so many Norman knights went abroad to Italy and such. This is extremely similar to the theory about how the Scandinavians clans were essentially running out of room, either literally or figuratively, for all their sons, and so some became vikingr.
- "Band of brothers"; To quote Ansgar, "Those who don't serve to inherit things, those who have been disinherited by their family and are essentially 'nobodies', perhaps even those on the run or exiled and looking for a new life and therefore a new name as well." We fight together, we stick together, etc.

We particularly like the idea as it contrasts with previous Norman clans, which were all feudal organizations.
 

HannesFury

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"Comparing Old Danish to Old English and Old Saxon"

Brief and easy to read overview/comparison of common words. Also includes an audio excerpt of Danish, with more to explore should you be willing:

https://babblelingua.com/comparing-old-danish-old-english-old-saxon/
 

Painmace

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Hey, didnt feel lile reading through 44 pages.. sorry?

I was wondering if there are any ”standardized”/accepted list of ranks for Vinkings?
 

RagnarGerman

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Painmace said:
Hey, didnt feel lile reading through 44 pages.. sorry?

I was wondering if there are any ”standardized”/accepted list of ranks for Vinkings?
I don't think so. Do you attend to convert your regiment's/clan's ranks for Vikingr into something fitting for the period?
 

Painmace

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RagnarGerman said:
Painmace said:
Hey, didnt feel lile reading through 44 pages.. sorry?

I was wondering if there are any ”standardized”/accepted list of ranks for Vinkings?
I don't think so. Do you attend to convert your regiment's/clan's ranks for Vikingr into something fitting for the period?
Yes, we are hosting a Saturday mod event (new mod each week) this week (28th) we are doing Vikingr

Iv managed to formalize something :smile:
 

Mancom37

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Albeit this whole thing is a tad dead I always wondered, what resources did you guys use to make the equipment for the Irish/Goidelic faction? I was confused at first to see Ridge helmets in there.
 

RagnarGerman

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Albeit this whole thing is a tad dead I always wondered, what resources did you guys use to make the equipment for the Irish/Goidelic faction? I was confused at first to see Ridge helmets in there.
To actually give a serious answer (although from someone who was not part of the dev-team) there is generally a lot of freedom in Vikingr when it comes to several items. The Väslgarde helmet for the Norðmenn is a helmet of the Vendel Period (The period in Scandinavia before the Viking Age). Seaxes do appear in scandinavian context for the Viking Age, but there are only a few finds and the only one I know, which would be suit for combat, would be the one from Hedeby. (Which suggests that Seaxes in Viking Age Scandinavia went out of fashion.) The Coppergate helmet for the Engle is too early for the Viking Age aswell, the Yldrena Láf sword for the Wísa also has a design from the migration period. (So called Ring-Swords). You could make a whole list of things that are not 100% correct, but in all honestly, for the time it was made, Vikingr was still quite an accurate mod unlike other mods you had for Warband. And if the Devs wouldn't have taken that freedom, the item slots would probably be quite fewer than today.
 

Mancom37

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We used our endless imagination.
It was well used that I am sure

To actually give a serious answer (although from someone who was not part of the dev-team) there is generally a lot of freedom in Vikingr when it comes to several items. The Väslgarde helmet for the Norðmenn is a helmet of the Vendel Period (The period in Scandinavia before the Viking Age). Seaxes do appear in scandinavian context for the Viking Age, but there are only a few finds and the only one I know, which would be suit for combat, would be the one from Hedeby. (Which suggests that Seaxes in Viking Age Scandinavia went out of fashion.) The Coppergate helmet for the Engle is too early for the Viking Age aswell, the Yldrena Láf sword for the Wísa also has a design from the migration period. (So called Ring-Swords). You could make a whole list of things that are not 100% correct, but in all honestly, for the time it was made, Vikingr was still quite an accurate mod unlike other mods you had for Warband. And if the Devs wouldn't have taken that freedom, the item slots would probably be quite fewer than today.
Aye thank you for the clarification it certainly did and still does look accurate for the period and setting the devs wanted, the Goedelic is certainly my favourite faction albeit I kinda wish there had been a skirmish class more focused around something like a javelinmen or even a sling, they already have a lot of unique stuff like the Clubs and the hewing spear.
 

hrotha

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the Yldrena Láf sword for the Wísa also has a design from the migration period.
Yldrena Laf was called that ("legacy of the ancestors") because it was not from this time period. Basically it was reinterpreted as a heirloom.
 

RagnarGerman

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Yldrena Laf was called that ("legacy of the ancestors") because it was not from this time period. Basically it was reinterpreted as a heirloom.
Ah, I didn't know about that, thanks for pointing it out. (Also, nice to see that you're still alive, Hrotha.)