Historic Thread for Floris Workshop Development.

[Michiko]

Sounds awesome. Those improvement things also sound very exciting, especially since I love the building aspect of having your own kingdom. Even the limited Native + Diplomacy stuff is already seat glue to me.

Can you make it so that AI lords might also have a chance to improve their own fiefs if they can afford it? Is that even possible? I find it sad whenever all my own fiefs are rich and flourishing because I build a mill ASAP and hire a few patrols around the area to protect the farmers. Meanwhile the fiefs of all my vassals seem to be poor. One of the towns I gave a vassal is the absolute poorest town in the game right now (it was like 10th richest when I was still maintaining it myself before I gave it to him). I suddenly have second-thoughts about giving fiefs to them as it is in 2.53.

 

[Windyplains]

Yes, it is possible to have the lords build improvements and that is absolutely planned, but not implemented yet in 0.03.  The system was built with this in mind and my aim is to have that get introduced with 0.04 along with more improvements.

 

[Muglos]

I really like some of the changes in the newest version.

- I never quite understood why persuade was based in the intelligence attribute instead of charisma. I suppose they kind of go hand in hand -- For one to be charismatic, they would most likely would need to be intelligent. But I believe it's the right decision.

- I also like the increase in leadership skill from 5 to 8. That seems like a good, solid number. In my opinion.

So when you talk to captured lords is it going to be similar to P of Pendor where they can offer their own freedom at a reduced cost?

 

[Windyplains]

I really like some of the changes in the newest version.

Glad to hear it.  I am also open to ideas on things to try out.

So when you talk to captured lords is it going to be similar to P of Pendor where they can offer their own freedom at a reduced cost?

Yes, but if you have sufficient persuasion you can try to intimidate them into paying more.  Negative consequences on that though.  If you have a Gaoler assigned these interactions are more amusing.

 

[Eagle114th]

Windyplains, I have some questions for you since I am working on Freelancer equipment overhaul (customizable troop equipment), is maximum of equipment 64?  I am squeezing the equipment to give players more diversity of equipment to combine on their troops based on their "Tier".  At once when I release mini-mod for Freelancer and if they are stable, would you like to consider about implementing this mini-mod into your mod if you haven't done anything to freelancer troops (customizable troops) yet?


Eagle out...

 

[Windyplains]

Windyplains, I have some questions for you since I am working on Freelancer equipment overhaul (customizable troop equipment), is maximum of equipment 64?

42 base slots + 6/rank of inventory management.  So I believe there is technically 102 maximum slots, but the first 9 (0 to are for your equipped gear.  So I'd keep yourself limited to 70-80 at most for safety.

  I am squeezing the equipment to give players more diversity of equipment to combine on their troops based on their "Tier".  At once when I release mini-mod for Freelancer and if they are stable, would you like to consider about implementing this mini-mod into your mod if you haven't done anything to freelancer troops (customizable troops) yet?

Pass.  I intend to keep the Workshop limited to native textures and resources as much as humanly possible.  This is my sandbox mod for developing stuff to put in Floris which means it gets compiled & reloaded very often.  So I'd like to keep that compile/reload time as low as possible.  Also that should keep it so that folks can play this as an alternative to Floris if their system can't even handle expanded or gameplay.  I have made some exceptions (narf's awesome heraldic platemail and dunde's heraldic warhorses) as I add some things for my own play-through enjoyment (as well as for others now that folks are using this too), but I suspect you're using a lot of Floris items & textures.  So unfortunately, while I am a big fan of improving the freelancer mercenary system for Floris, it is in conflict with what I am aiming to do for the Workshop.  If you made a native item variant (as I had to with TPE's prizes) I'd certainly consider it.  Hopefully all of that made sense.

Edit:
Btw...more ideas for center improvements to mix in with v0.04 are still encouraged.

 

[deftech]

Loving the new version and the tweaked improvements plus AI lords actually being able to maintain their property sounds really interesting.

One suggestion/request I'd like to throw out there is an extension of the option you've already added regarding faction specific popups.  PoP offers a nice option to "show only important news" which basically suppresses all the white text messages based on your faction status.  All the so and so lord was defeated, villages looted, castle/town besieged etc. are hidden unless the information is relevant to your faction.  Off the top of my head the system is kind of set up like this...

If you aren't a member of a faction:

Messages Shown
- War declarations and peace treaties (Red & Light Blue)
- Castles and Towns that change hands (Light Blue)
- Lords switching factions or being exiled (Light Blue)

Messages Hidden
- Lords defeated
- Lords taken prisoner
- Castle and Town Besieged
- Villages Looted

If you are a member of a faction or have your own faction:

Messages Shown
- War declarations and peace treaties (Red & Light Blue)
- Castles and Towns that change hands (Light Blue- default, Green- Your faction takes a center, Red-You faction loses a center)
- Lords switching factions or being exiled (Light Blue)

Messages Hidden (If faction relevant than it is shown, otherwise it is hidden)
- Lords defeated (Light Green- Enemy Lord, Light Red- Friendly Lord)
- Lords taken prisoner (Light Green - Enemy Lord, Red - Friendly Lord)
- Castle and Town Besieged (Green - Enemy center, Red - Friendly center)
- Villages Looted ( Green- Enemy village, Red - Friendly village)

The color coding is just there for examples and is certainly open for changes.  Again, this type of system is just a suggestion but something I've come to love about PoP and haven't really seen in any other mods.  Being able to clean up the sea of white text really with figuring out what is going on around the realm.

Oh and maybe an idea for center improvement: (Not sure how this would play with the existing tavern bonus)

Apothacary
Applicable:Castles, Towns
Cost: 10,000 denars; 25 weekly upkeep
Special: Units resting receive a 100% bonus to healing speed.

 

[Windyplains]

Spoiler

Loving the new version and the tweaked improvements plus AI lords actually being able to maintain their property sounds really interesting.

One suggestion/request I'd like to throw out there is an extension of the option you've already added regarding faction specific popups.  PoP offers a nice option to "show only important news" which basically suppresses all the white text messages based on your faction status.  All the so and so lord was defeated, villages looted, castle/town besieged etc. are hidden unless the information is relevant to your faction.  Off the top of my head the system is kind of set up like this...

If you aren't a member of a faction:

Messages Shown
- War declarations and peace treaties (Red & Light Blue)
- Castles and Towns that change hands (Light Blue)
- Lords switching factions or being exiled (Light Blue)

Messages Hidden
- Lords defeated
- Lords taken prisoner
- Castle and Town Besieged
- Villages Looted

If you are a member of a faction or have your own faction:

Messages Shown
- War declarations and peace treaties (Red & Light Blue)
- Castles and Towns that change hands (Light Blue- default, Green- Your faction takes a center, Red-You faction loses a center)
- Lords switching factions or being exiled (Light Blue)

Messages Hidden (If faction relevant than it is shown, otherwise it is hidden)
- Lords defeated (Light Green- Enemy Lord, Light Red- Friendly Lord)
- Lords taken prisoner (Light Green - Enemy Lord, Red - Friendly Lord)
- Castle and Town Besieged (Green - Enemy center, Red - Friendly center)
- Villages Looted ( Green- Enemy village, Red - Friendly village)

The color coding is just there for examples and is certainly open for changes.  Again, this type of system is just a suggestion but something I've come to love about PoP and haven't really seen in any other mods.  Being able to clean up the sea of white text really with figuring out what is going on around the realm.

Accepted.  I will add this to my list for inclusion in either 0.04 or 0.05.  I had thoughts to expand on what I had started, but I am admittedly easily distracted by new things to tinker with.

Edit: Request included in v0.04.

 

[Eagle114th]

Windyplains, I have some questions for you since I am working on Freelancer equipment overhaul (customizable troop equipment), is maximum of equipment 64?

42 base slots + 6/rank of inventory management.  So I believe there is technically 102 maximum slots, but the first 9 (0 to are for your equipped gear.  So I'd keep yourself limited to 70-80 at most for safety.

  I am squeezing the equipment to give players more diversity of equipment to combine on their troops based on their "Tier".  At once when I release mini-mod for Freelancer and if they are stable, would you like to consider about implementing this mini-mod into your mod if you haven't done anything to freelancer troops (customizable troops) yet?

Pass.  I intend to keep the Workshop limited to native textures and resources as much as humanly possible.  This is my sandbox mod for developing stuff to put in Floris which means it gets compiled & reloaded very often.  So I'd like to keep that compile/reload time as low as possible.  Also that should keep it so that folks can play this as an alternative to Floris if their system can't even handle expanded or gameplay.  I have made some exceptions (narf's awesome heraldic platemail and dunde's heraldic warhorses) as I add some things for my own play-through enjoyment (as well as for others now that folks are using this too), but I suspect you're using a lot of Floris items & textures.  So unfortunately, while I am a big fan of improving the freelancer mercenary system for Floris, it is in conflict with what I am aiming to do for the Workshop.  If you made a native item variant (as I had to with TPE's prizes) I'd certainly consider it.  Hopefully all of that made sense.

Edit:
Btw...more ideas for center improvements to mix in with v0.04 are still encouraged.

Ah ok understood, I thank you for taking your time to explain me your goals in this Floris mod.  I have some idea for you where I hope it is great idea for you.  How about this as an alternative method to allow you to see all displayed different equipment for each tiers of freelancer army:

1) Using number to determine the tier of equipment itself, it should display specific range of number (quality) of eqiupment for each tier of army.  Let's say, recruit (first tier) should have their equipment only display helmet and armor that show up as "0 to 1" for protection quality, while tier 2 sees 10 to 20 where it would list more range of helmet and armor in inventory as an example.  Higher Tier would see improved equipment based on range of quality of equipment itself.

2) Use separate invention for helmet, armor, glove, foot, 1h, 2h, both h1+h2 weapons, along with polearm and the rest of equipment individually so that way you have much more space in invention for all of equipment to be selected for any tiers of freelancer army while keeping it flexibly between different types of Floris where it would display any types of equipment that is available in game.

What do you think about this idea?


Eagle out...

 

[Windyplains]

Apothacary
Applicable: Castles, Towns
Cost: 10,000 denars; 25 weekly upkeep
Special: Units resting receive a 100% bonus to healing speed.

Pass.  I like the idea, but the wound treatment benefit and associated healing process appears to be entirely engine-side in the code.  At least I did not see it in the module system anywhere.  While I could see this used vs. heroes (as they're singular and thus track health individually), I am not really sure how to apply it to a stack of regular troops at present.  So reworking it might be an option, but I have to pass on the current proposal.

Ah ok understood, I thank you for taking your time to explain me your goals in this Floris mod.  I have some idea for you where I hope it is great idea for you.  How about this as an alternative method to allow you to see all displayed different equipment for each tiers of freelancer army:

1) Using number to determine the tier of equipment itself, it should display specific range of number (quality) of eqiupment for each tier of army.  Let's say, recruit (first tier) should have their equipment only display helmet and armor that show up as "0 to 1" for protection quality, while tier 2 sees 10 to 20 where it would list more range of helmet and armor in inventory as an example.  Higher Tier would see improved equipment based on range of quality of equipment itself.

2) Use separate invention for helmet, armor, glove, foot, 1h, 2h, both h1+h2 weapons, along with polearm and the rest of equipment individually so that way you have much more space in invention for all of equipment to be selected for any tiers of freelancer army while keeping it flexibly between different types of Floris where it would display any types of equipment that is available in game.

What do you think about this idea?

I think this idea belongs in the suggestions thread as it is aimed at the main Floris mod.  Aside from that, I could see a method for designing an entirely different customization setup similar to how you're approaching here.  Just scan all items and add ones that fit within a certain criteria.  Since the new autoloot system already rates items it would actually serve as the best medium to judge what is similar and pick which would give a greater range of diversity.  Then just show only 1 equipment type at a time and select which you want.  The issue here is with such a wide range of customization these freelancer troops would easily rival anything the normal factions can put out.  Because you could easily min/max a soldier great at something with the right gear and have another troop type that is great at covering their weakness, etc.  While the idea is intriguing and I do love customization, it would be potentially quite unbalancing.  This is if I understood where you were going and my proposal sounds similar in that theme.

 

[Michiko]

I posted some ideas in the Diplomacy suggestion thread last week. See if you can use some of them too. Dunno if they still check that stuff in Diplomacy lol.

 

[Muglos]

Windy, I think this was discussed briefly in the suggestions thread a while back but what is your take on hiring deserters? Do you like how it works and how the player loses renown instead of honor?

 

[Windyplains]

I posted some ideas in the Diplomacy suggestion thread last week. See if you can use some of them too. Dunno if they still check that stuff in Diplomacy lol.

Shelved.  I like the ideas, but the scope of those changes (from a code perspective) would be extensive to make sure you tracked down any side-effects.  You're talking about some fairly decent modifications to how the Party AI (lord decision making process) works.  While I have a strong inclination to eventually tackle creating something as an alternative to the Diplomacy Mod's approach, that's is way over the horizon as far as priorities go.  Small modifications on the other hand I may take a look at such as v0.03's newer prisoner diplomacy options.  Those few lines of commenting in the version log were not minor modifications.  They are, however, ones aimed at giving the player a little more power of position and attempts at improving the importance of charisma & persuasion.

Windy, I think this was discussed briefly in the suggestions thread a while back but what is your take on hiring deserters? Do you like how it works and how the player loses renown instead of honor?

Are you saying that you'd rather see a  hit to honor than renown?  That is far more punishing.

 

[Muglos]

I posted some ideas in the Diplomacy suggestion thread last week. See if you can use some of them too. Dunno if they still check that stuff in Diplomacy lol.

Shelved.  I like the ideas, but the scope of those changes (from a code perspective) would be extensive to make sure you tracked down any side-effects.  You're talking about some fairly decent modifications to how the Party AI (lord decision making process) works.  While I have a strong inclination to eventually tackle creating something as an alternative to the Diplomacy Mod's approach, that's is way over the horizon as far as priorities go.  Small modifications on the other hand I may take a look at such as v0.03's newer prisoner diplomacy options.  Those few lines of commenting in the version log were not minor modifications.  They are, however, ones aimed at giving the player a little more power of position and attempts at improving the importance of charisma & persuasion.

Windy, I think this was discussed briefly in the suggestions thread a while back but what is your take on hiring deserters? Do you like how it works and how the player loses renown instead of honor?

Are you saying that you'd rather see a  hit to honor than renown?  That is far more punishing.

More or less. I just don't see how hiring deserters would make my character less known to the world. Renown, for better or for worse, is technically popularity right? Or am I mistaken?

I do see how hiring would-be traitors would hurt my credibility however. It does seem dishonorable. Since it would show serious disfavor to the realm by hiring betrayers and cowards.

I dunno.. just throwing ideas out there.

 

[Windyplains]

I do not disagree that renown doesn't really fit either.  I am just saying that it was probably chosen because loses of honor would be significantly more damaging.  I'd rather lose 40 renown vs. 1 honor.  It is easier to replace.  Truth be told, however, I am not a fan of other method.

 

[Muglos]

Agreed. I suppose we will just have to make do with what the games default is for now... until we think of something more sensible. 

Thanks for the quick response to my question.

 

[Michiko]

Shelved.  I like the ideas, but the scope of those changes (from a code perspective) would be extensive to make sure you tracked down any side-effects.  You're talking about some fairly decent modifications to how the Party AI (lord decision making process) works.  While I have a strong inclination to eventually tackle creating something as an alternative to the Diplomacy Mod's approach, that's is way over the horizon as far as priorities go.  Small modifications on the other hand I may take a look at such as v0.03's newer prisoner diplomacy options.  Those few lines of commenting in the version log were not minor modifications.  They are, however, ones aimed at giving the player a little more power of position and attempts at improving the importance of charisma & persuasion.

Thanks. You can tell from my suggestions that I really am an Intelligence and Charisma player lol. Oh and I really do enjoy taking care of my kingdom as well. That said I'm really looking forward to all the changes and hopefully the full release.

On the topic of "renown" and "honour", the game is rather vague and confusing on those anyway. They're using the terms broadly it seems. "Honour" seems to be both actual honor and benevolence, which aren't necessarily the same especially in the context of war and being a warlord. For example, you gain honour for defending a woman's name (actual honor) and also helping a village and taking no reward (benevolence). You also lose honour for refusing ransom for a noble in your captivity, regardless of how evil he was and how many innocent farmers and caravans he's murdered and your intention is to keep the civilians safe, which should actually earn you honour instead.

"Renown" should be how much your name is known throughout Calradia by definition, but you don't gain renown for many acts that would've given you renown in real life, like marriage or hosting a feast and other public events that people in Calradia would hear about. Or even helping or harming civilians, which would raise your renown like how legendary names of even evil people are spread. Conversations around the village or the town square like, "The ruler of <player's kingdom> is so evil, he's slaughtered entire populations of peasant farmers! I hope we never become his subjects." That's technically renown IRL, but you don't get that in the game.

 

[Muglos]

Vauge is right. You hit the nail on the head. The game acts as if renown is  "earned" by doing either good deeds, or actions which are considered the norm in game terms. Such as slaughtering bandits. Theoretically, the player should get renown whenever he/she does something that is relevant to the land weather it be good or evil and its observed by someone. Like you said, anyone, weather being incredibly evil and malevolent, can be just as well known as say a highly prestigious and honorable person.

Heh... maybe when you hire deserters you should gain renoun but lose honour simultaneously?

That brings to another question: Is it even possible to gain or lose honour while gaining the other? Such as:

"You lost  x honour and gained x renoun"

"You lost x renoun  and gained x honour"

 

[Windyplains]

Is it even possible to gain or lose honour while gaining the other? Such as:
"You lost  x honour and gained x renoun"
"You lost x renoun  and gained x honour"

Yes, these are separate values that can be adjusted individually or at the same time.

 

[Windyplains]

Looks like I had an oversight in this release on repairing damaged improvements (cost isn't modified).  That is fixed for v0.04.  Also the AI lords now have "AI scripts" built in to improve and repair improvements in their own centers and will do so with a scripted priority.

I've added a feedback polls page for the workshop to the main Floris wiki.  When folks have time please stop by to give your thoughts on it.