Historic Thread for Floris Workshop Development.

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Windyplains

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Hanakoganei said:
Gave it a whirl earlier and it's pretty cool so far. That reports page looks surprisingly cluttered though, even if the reformatting is supposed to make it easier to find stuff.
This mod (the testing one) doesn't have any reformatting of the reports menu.  It only has the native reports + the troop trees viewer.  Though most of the native reports were replaced with jrider's revised ones.

I definitely want to hear folks impressions of the new auto looting system as far as convenience vs. the current 2.53 system.  Does the new confirmation pages feel overly cumbersome or do they feel natural enough during gameplay?
 

Paladin Ramos

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I have a complain to make to you Windyplains!
I accuse you (not really :lol:) of ruining MY AND MANY PEOPLES GAMES, you smiter of game hours!

I have reason for saying that......

   
One question. Do you think Floris 2.6 (or this for that matter) will be compatible with my saves from 2.53? I feel bad working so hard to for my kingdom only to have to start a new game to get all these features working. :sad:
Afraid not.  2.6 will definitely be save game breaking due to the number of changes being made.
You know WHY i NEVER finished warband?!? :?:
Its because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU (Windyplains)!! :evil:
I mean  EVERY TIME i'm about to end, you add something new, and i go like "HEY! WHAT'S THAT?! GOTO TRY THAT! HOOOO! EXCELLENT IDEA! SO MANY NEW STUFF! CAN'T WAIT FOR RELEASE! (feeling like a kid in christmas :grin:) I'LL POSTPONE MY PLAY CAUSE IM GONE WAIT FOR THIS! DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S SAVE FRIENDLY OR NOT CAUSE IM STARTING A NEW GAME! LET'S SEE WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO PLAY!"

DAMN YOU (again, not really :lol:), FOR KEEPING ME ADDICTED TO THIS GAME! (that su**s in vanilla by the way! for real..... wouldn't take many game hours before i got bored to tears)

..............ANY WAY!
This is my way of saying THANK YOU (DUDE! your my santa! really cause christmas presents after a certain age SU**! even more after you marry and have kids [ALL THE GOOD STUFF GOES TO THEM! NOT FAIR! :cry:] :lol:), you are making a wonderful job at keeping the child in me VEWY HAPPY! BIG THANKS! KEEP EM COMING!

...and "don't take offence at my innuendo!".
 

Windyplains

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Thanks!  Feedback is always appreciated and encouraging.

And now that I am back from vacation I'm working on v0.2.  It should find itself released by week's end, but the one sad part is that it will not be save game compatible.  The compiling process for Floris had some tweaks that maintain save game compatibility (storing variables) that I did not have installed in v0.1.  I have fixed this for v0.2 and hopefully it should remain save game compatible for the future.  Sorry about that folks...lost two long running games of my own in the process.

More party roles:


Requirements:
These have been added to help balance the benefit of these roles, but they are not nearly as difficulty to achieve as they may initially appear.

Storekeeper can be filled by Marnid, Ymira, Jeremus, Katrin, Floris and Ghazwan as soon as you get them.
Quartermaster can be filled by Marnid, Ymira, Jeremus, Floris and Ghazwan as soon as you get them.
Gaoler has no one who can immediately fill it, but several folks have the initial charisma requirement to reach a skill of 3.
I am working to integrate these roles into the main code more with easier refinements.  Such as when you slaughter cattle your storekeeper will automatically loot the fresh beef.
 

Bankoleva

Squire
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Hey windy there was some talk i think in the suggestion thread a few days ago about there being NPC diplomats to avoid sending your combat companions on diplomatic missions... or worse wasting points on you combat companions for persuasion values... which lets face it is really a useless skill at this point.

Was thinking this would fit in well with your role concepts. A diplomat role for companions... some bonus idea might be a
- 2% bonus on rewards from quests for each  persuasion point...
- obviously this would be primary for mercenary payment option
- When you have your kingdom ... they come back faster instead of taking 3 days
      - treaties require 2 less point when you send them out as emmisary... so at 5 persuasion you need 10 less relation to get the treaties signed...


Not sure feasible those are but a thought.
 

Windyplains

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Bankoleva said:
Hey windy there was some talk i think in the suggestion thread a few days ago about there being NPC diplomats to avoid sending your combat companions on diplomatic missions... or worse wasting points on you combat companions for persuasion values... which lets face it is really a useless skill at this point.
The persuasion skill should gain in usefulness as more quests are written to make use of it.  Having a diplomat companion is something I was already thinking on during the week, but would not fit in the current system.  These roles are more party based.  A diplomat companion would like fit a theme for replacing the Diplomacy mod's NPCs with companion ones (something I think would be better).  That would be another system in itself. 

I'll think more on it as your suggestion for the mercenary contracts does go the party route.
 

Paladin Ramos

Recruit
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Hey windy there was some talk i think in the suggestion thread a few days ago about there being NPC diplomats to avoid sending your combat companions on diplomatic missions... or worse wasting points on you combat companions for persuasion values... which lets face it is really a useless skill at this point.
The persuasion skill should gain in usefulness as more quests are written to make use of it.  Having a diplomat companion is something I was already thinking on during the week, but would not fit in the current system.  These roles are more party based.  A diplomat companion would like fit a theme for replacing the Diplomacy mod's NPCs with companion ones (something I think would be better).  That would be another system in itself.

I'll think more on it as your suggestion for the mercenary contracts does go the party route.
Well glad you were thinking about it cause that's i have being bit**ing about for some time.
The way i was thinking was to create a NEW staff member, not involving companions at ALL (you know cause they are all combat oriented, and, im NOT putting skill points on charisma other than myself, or else, they take forever to get to decent levels).

but i guess i could take time to level ONE guy charisma if your approach is using companions!
Why not create diplomatic convoys?! spawning in the capital or whatever! that way you could prevent peace being made, or whatever relations kings wish to ask another?! they have to be fast so that they don't get caught as often!........ just an idea!

i mean in real live kings and lords were surrounded by people whit knowledge, why not here?
 

Windyplains

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Paladin Ramos said:
The way i was thinking was to create a NEW staff member, not involving companions at ALL (you know cause they are all combat oriented, and, im NOT putting skill points on charisma other than myself, or else, they take forever to get to decent levels).
They really are not supposed to be all combat oriented and that is the real goal I am trying to improve.  Giving players reasons to develop companions that can use the support skills in a meaningful way and gain experience via non-combat means.
 

Bankoleva

Squire
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Windyplains said:
Paladin Ramos said:
The way i was thinking was to create a NEW staff member, not involving companions at ALL (you know cause they are all combat oriented, and, im NOT putting skill points on charisma other than myself, or else, they take forever to get to decent levels).
They really are not supposed to be all combat oriented and that is the real goal I am trying to improve.  Giving players reasons to develop companions that can use the support skills in a meaningful way and gain experience via non-combat means.
I'm not sure if it's so much experience as much as giving those skills value. If your goal is to turn your companion into lords, all those other skills offers little value.

- leadership allows them to carry more troops but at 5 for each skill point,... thats useless. Most of us are aware that army size is way more impacted by their finances and level, which impacts their renown... My companion lords have 0 leadership and still have bigger armies than AI lords.

- I honestly don't know if wound treatment and other medical skills have any value for lords either. Supposedly they do but i don't see a difference in implimentation. my lords get their buts whooped and armies destroyed all the same and they don't seem to get back in the fight any faster. Same goes for pathfinding... they seem just as slow. I assume Trainer is working but honestly, they seem to have the same level and value troops as the AI lords.

In the end i've just settle on my planned companion lords being jugernauts on the battlefield. Heaviest everything and rediculous stregnth to match. Other skils tend to get put just because i want to be creative.

As for the companions i plan to keep as my personal guards, stregnth and agility way up... intelligence once in a while to maximze missing points and never put points in charisma. I tend to run an itelligence based character because the player bonus makes it more worth while. I'm usually the medic and engineer. Simply put there's no value outside of making your companions killing machines... or better stated... There's no NOTICEABLE value. I can see that my companions are killing machines right in front of me. Hell with this mod you get confirmation on the results page Deshavi: 43 kills; 2 wounded... (this was an awesome idea and feature by the way)

I think your definitely going in the right direction windy but if the player can't tell that the point he's invested into something was a worthwhile venture ... they will never bother.
 

Windyplains

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Bankoleva said:
I think your definitely going in the right direction windy but if the player can't tell that the point he's invested into something was a worthwhile venture ... they will never bother.
I can't disagree with your logic here.  I am hoping the new party role system moves us in the right direction, but it should also highlight the benefit of these "support companions" a bit more. 

Right now Floris 2.53 allows companions to pick up loot and sell it.  Well in 2.6 this "quartermaster" is the only person who is going to allow you to do that.  In 2.53 if the first companion's inventory is full the next companion is used.  With this system only one companion is ever used so if you want his looting space to be more useful you need to up his inventory management.  Most native companions begin with 2 (if not all) so that's usually +12 slots over the a player anyway.  Considering you can gain another +48 on top of that it shouldn't be hard to figure out why this is beneficial.

The "storekeeper" lets you move food over to them which isn't currently an option.  Consider that someone like Katrin has a base inventory management skill of 7!  That's a lot of food.

The "gaoler" adds an entirely new option of having their prison management skill override your own.  It costs you some of your earnings from selling prisoners, but hey...he even does that automatically for you.  Since this role's benefit scales directly with their prisoner management skill I figure folks should see the benefit of that.  Will they pump it all of the way to 10?  Probably not, but I'd hope folks would get it to 4-5 at least.  Maybe we'll add in some other kind of benefit for higher levels such as improving your chance to capture a lord or prevent his escape, but that would need agreement among the team.

The "farrier", if added, would save a lot of cash having to buy new horses due to becoming lame.  This would likely require some kind of minor item input such as iron & tools, but that's a whole lot cheaper than replacing a 4+k denar warhorse.

The "surgeon" would serve two purposes really.  Preventing you from using him as your "farrier" is one.  More importantly it helps this commonly used support character from lagging behind the rest in experience as he is often moved to the bottom of a party list and not involved in fights.  Perhaps by giving him a small xp bonus for each person he prevents (specifically due to his influence) from being killed in combat might help make up for that.
 

Windyplains

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Version 0.2 Released
  • Save Game Compatibility: Broken!  This had to be done to add in some process improvements so future versions would be able to stay save game compatible.
  • Compatible Warband Version: 1.143 (Still awaiting WSE update for 1.153)
  • WSE Minimum Required Version: 2.7.1 (included)

Change Log:
  • Bug Fixes:
    • Fixed a dialog issue when askng a village elder for quests while not a noble.
    • Fixed a bug with script "auto_buy_food" to prevent it misfiring upon leaving a castle.
  • Game Changes:
    • Companion relation report & assign party roles menu options are now disabled if you have no companions.
    • Refined slaughtering of cattle to trigger the autolooting menu so "storekeepers" can collect the fresh beef.
    • When companions win prizes from a tournament they automatically give them to the player.
    • Imposed a maximum relation gain/loss of +/-1 for nobles when winning a tournament during a feast.
    • Removed the courtship benefit to relation gain with ladies when winning a tournament if you are married.
    • Limited town relation gain to a maximum of +3 per tournament.
    • Capped the experience gain due to high intelligence during tournaments to +50xp.
    • Added the "Gaoler" companion role.
      • Uses gaoler's prisoner management instead of the player's for determining maximum prisoner capacity.
      • Will automatically sell any prisoners upon entering town that are not heroes or needed for a quest.
      • Gains 15% of all profit earned as experience.
      • Keeps 15% of all money earned from selling prisoners.
    • Added the "Quartermaster" companion role.
      • Collects all battlefield loot valued > 50 denars from the autoloot menu.
      • Sells any goods or gear stored upon entering town, if enabled in mod options, and receives 15% of the earnings.
      • Gains 5% of all profits earned as experience.

 

winrehs007

Knight
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Companion Role... :eek:

WSE needs to be updated soon, that's the only reason I'm not using this great sub-mod.
 

Windyplains

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winrehs007 said:
Companion Role... :eek:

WSE needs to be updated soon, that's the only reason I'm not using this great sub-mod.
It isn't likely to get an update very soon by the looks of it.  Cmp's got his own mod to tend in addition to whatever else he has going on.  It still is worth running a 1.143 version to try out the new stuff. :wink:

I just wanted to get v0.2 out to get past the save game break I had to cause.  That and Bankoleva said I had to get back to work when I returned from vacation. :razz:
 
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Windyplains said:
[quote author=Hanakoganei]One question. Do you think Floris 2.6 (or this for that matter) will be compatible with my saves from 2.53? I feel bad working so hard to for my kingdom only to have to start a new game to get all these features working. :sad:
Afraid not.  2.6 will definitely be save game breaking due to the number of changes being made.
[/quote]

Well it's a good thing that Floris adds so much replayability. I guess when 2.6 comes out I can try my hand at being a villian instead of a law-abiding peon :smile:
 

Bankoleva

Squire
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i tried that for 2.53 lyc.... really not alot of avenues that way. Far more restrictive. My first 100 days i was an independant bandit wanted by 4 kingdoms.... made less money, and was severly limited on the quests i could do. I kept pushing thinking something gotta be possible differnt as a bad guy but in the end ambushing and ransoming lords take forever if they don't escape, raiding vilages and caravans don't pay out well once the global prosperity drops (which is rather quick), you limited in the troops you recruit because nations hate you and for some reason manhunters still love you. Basically there isn't scripted value as a bad guy. Maybe in the future there will some morality/honor challenging quests.
 

deftech

Long time lurker, first time poster.  Let me first say thanks for all the amazing work that's gone into these mods. 

I've been playing around with the latest alpha and it's awesome.  The new auto-loot system is, for a lack of a better word, perfect.  The customization all clicks and the confirmation screens are definitely not obtrusive, but very helpful.

I love the new party roles but I have to agree with what Bankoleva already pointed out about the overall usefulness of creating support companions.  The biggest reason it's so hard to justify is the player bonus on party skills.  Perhaps if the bonus was removed, more options would open up (not sure if this is even possible).  Or maybe if the companion assigned to a certain role would gain that bonus at different increments.  Jacking up charisma on the player for leadership seems a little like a waste if you're planning on assigning someone else to take over trade and prisoner duties.

All in all very impressive.  I'll keep messing around with this to see if I can offer any more feedback.

Oh one quick question.  Is there any way to incorporate the 2.53 sounds into this?  I forgot how unbelievably terrible the native sounds were.
 

Windyplains

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deftech said:
I've been playing around with the latest alpha and it's awesome.  The new auto-loot system is, for a lack of a better word, perfect.  The customization all clicks and the confirmation screens are definitely not obtrusive, but very helpful.
Thanks and I am glad to hear that.  During development there had been some discussion on how intrusive this change might seem.

I love the new party roles but I have to agree with what Bankoleva already pointed out about the overall usefulness of creating support companions.  The biggest reason it's so hard to justify is the player bonus on party skills.  Perhaps if the bonus was removed, more options would open up (not sure if this is even possible).  Or maybe if the companion assigned to a certain role would gain that bonus at different increments.  Jacking up charisma on the player for leadership seems a little like a waste if you're planning on assigning someone else to take over trade and prisoner duties.
This is true.  Though it is possible to achieve a 6 in leadership at character creation + 1 from reading a book + 1 from carrying another book (8 leadership without any Charisma improvement).  While you may not get to 14 with a party bonus in any of the Charisma skills, you've effectively managed to get leadership to 13 and trade + prisoner management to 10 without having to invest in Charisma.  I can't let it get much better than that without removing any benefit for a player running a high charisma build.

All in all very impressive.  I'll keep messing around with this to see if I can offer any more feedback.
I'm also open to suggestions of other sorts for this little sub-mod.  Since it is effectively my playground for testing I make whatever tweaks in it I feel are interesting and see how they go.

Oh one quick question.  Is there any way to incorporate the 2.53 sounds into this?  I forgot how unbelievably terrible the native sounds were.
Hahaha....I assume you're referring to the very campy sounds troops make?  That isn't native...that's Brognar's Voice Pack which was added for my own amusement and never fails to make me chuckle.  You can delete them from your sounds folder if you've grown tired of hearing it and the native sounds will take over.  You can take sounds from Floris and copy them into the sound folder as well.  That works for replacing any native sounds.
 

Bankoleva

Squire
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mmmm...

I'd rather you add the player advantage to companion roles than take it away completely.....

On a more serious,.... and possibly crazy thought process though what if you add player bonus to lords in general. In thinking more on why companion lords and AI lords seem so useless in the long game , I realized its because compared to the player and the player party every non combat skill is garbage for AI lords. The player has companions, whose skills add and compound on each other making the player party more dangerous than any AI lord party could ever be. Additionally by level 20 your companions can be elite troops in their own right and by 30 the most powerful units in the game all in 1 party and under player control. Add in the player bonus on non combat skills and the player effectively has a triple advantage compared to any AI party. The game designs balance for this is numbers but lets be honest... that doesn't balance anything. By late game player party is in god mode and financially you can afford everything.... AI lords just can't compete.

Since lords don't have companions to bolster and share their party skills, i say why not give them the player bonus to atleast help make those non combat skills they have more effective in game? Since their non combat skills it would probably add some challenge and balance in without affect actual combat.


P.S.... Please pardon any belated or laxed interaction on my part for the next week or so. I ahve my own vacation with the girl friend starting tomorrow and MB is not on her fun activities list. It's on mines but not hers. And we all know that my list will probably never get filled so i'm not even gonna bother to show her :sad:. Anyway I might be able to james bond for a few minutes and share my thoughts but no testing, playing or serious involvement from me.... bye MB i'll miss you :cry:
 

Windyplains

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Bankoleva said:
I'd rather you add the player advantage to companion roles than take it away completely.....
Please elaborate.

Since lords don't have companions to bolster and share their party skills, i say why not give them the player bonus to atleast help make those non combat skills they have more effective in game? Since their non combat skills it would probably add some challenge and balance in without affect actual combat.
I am going to up the party sizes due to leadership & charisma contributions with the next version.  That should directly help lords quite a bit actually.  I can also look into improving the basic skill set lords have.  They really do get the same benefit as us from skills like path-finding, but they don't have much skill in it.  I think what you're suggesting is "companions" for lords.  I think that's an interesting idea, but would need some more digging into to see the scope of how large a project that would be.

P.S.... Please pardon any belated or laxed interaction on my part for the next week or so.
Real life commitments > gaming commitments.  Always.  Enjoy your vacation as well.  Hopefully you'll find v0.3 done or near ready when you return. 

As for everyone else...get to playtesting!  I am going to try to keep the updates to around a 1-2 week period (and keep save compatibility after v0.2) as my own time permits, but don't expect each update to be large in scope.  The idea is to keep the bugs fixed quickly and get the new stuff ready for testing out to folks as soon as they're ready.
 

Bankoleva

Squire
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player advantage to companion roles was more of a response to deftech thought about removing it from game in general. Though i notice that each companion before you get them has a title to identify prefered skill sets...??? (not sure if i'm explaining that right)... Maybe if that preference had the bonus.

I was not advocating lords getting companions. I was pointing out and more thinking about nerfing  the benefits player starts out with or preferably enhancing lords to help balance against those benefits. Although historically every knight did have a squire or page to assist him with war preparations (puting on armor, reading horse those kinds of things.), every commander a leftenant or seargent to train and keep the troops in line. And body guards weren't just for kings but highly influential or important nobles would have personal guards. In reality all the companion roles your giving us probably existed in every formal army. Perhaps an uncapturable unit, high on non combat skills but average in combat skills that always spawn into AI lord armies but never the players and limited to only 1 or 2 units. Entire purpose is to stregthen the non combat skills of the AI party.
 

Michiko

Knight
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Lycanus Darkbinder said:
Well it's a good thing that Floris adds so much replayability. I guess when 2.6 comes out I can try my hand at being a villian instead of a law-abiding peon :smile:
Haha yeah. And it's a good thing we can cheat too. I don't really feel like going through the harrowing experience of running around as a weak and poor civilian trying to earn money by trade routes just to keep a small inexperienced army fed.


I wonder if it's possible to make companions follow you around as captains of their own army even without turning them into vassals. You know how like those bandit leaders have smaller bandit groups following them too? You can manage their armies, even tell them to recruit more guys of a certain culture like the recruiter from Diplomacy, tell them to patrol a certain point, etc., like they're your vassal. But this way, you can split them from your group any time.

I also wonder if it's possible to have them re-absorb into your army if you want to, and take all of their soldiers into your army again. If your party is full, you get to that screen where you can choose which soldiers you want to add to your party and let the others go.

I think it can be a useful feature for those who aren't in a hurry to be king (actually even if you were, it still takes a long time to get a kingdom going without cheating anyway). Like if you're still trying to earn money by doing trade routes or as a mercenary captain for some faction, which could take months. This whole army/vassal management stuff is what excites me about being king actually. Not so much the domination of other factions or gaining territory or whatnot. I just like having a bunch of NPCs doing stuff I tell them to do (hence the PBOD thing).
 
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