Gamescom - Combat?? - Full Thoughts.

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Partizan_Rusi said:
Its completely invalid and not even band-aid solution. Changing grips was proposed many times, we can only guess why that stuff is ignored.

You can already change grips on at least one Nord axe in Warband, so they've already not ignored that- as for Bannerlord, as I've already pointed out you don't know what mechanics have been included and what haven't been, so stop saying they've ignored us and betrayed us and so on! It's ironic that you called an unknown person an 'emo' the other day when you always sound so emotional and hyperbolic.

That said, I do agree that the shafts of axes look silly when killing people and I was disappointed to see that part of the video last year. It shouldn't be a problem for balance to make the shaft deal low blunt damage because the axe animation is quite tight and short in Bannerlord, so you have to be nose to nose with your opponent for the blade to miss anyway. Also, I noticed at least one person in the multiplayer video from Gamescom that primed a thrust of the axe, and this thrust position begins so that the axe head was not far ahead of the player's stomach. The point being, you could use that thrust attack at point blank range to nudge the opponent back. I really agree with you for the above reasons; there is no problem with making the axe shaft do low blunt or even zero damage.
 
You want some realism? Ok. Let's make the horses and the characters die or bled to death after 1 hit. Let's make the characters die from dysentery, plague,... Some weapons could also slip from your hends if the weather is too hot.
Your character could have tendonitis after 2000+ hours on the game.

I could continue for hours.
 
Keller said:
You want some realism? Ok. Let's make the horses and the characters die or bled to death after 1 hit. Let's make the characters die from dysentery, plague,... Some weapons could also slip from your hends if the weather is too hot.
Your character could have tendonitis after 2000+ hours on the game.

I could continue for hours.

Suspension of disbelief.
 
kuwhar said:
Not sure if it was brought up but in that example lets say shafts do cause minimal damage, what if the opposing character was very low on health?
So if the axe shaft does 5damage and he has 3hp left, a swing tbat hits on the shaft will be the final blow.
No problem at all, at low hp enemy can just "pass out" or die from bleeding. Point is to not get instakills with long wooden stick.
kuwhar said:
Not that it's the most realistic system but it'd work just fine, I don't see the BFD.
So much negativity....
Don't worry, I'm flak and bullet-proof in my glorious red armour  :grin:

SoothSayerSaxon said:
How are they unfair if everyone can use them? Its only an exploit if it wasnt the devlopers intended design, even though it might not be perfect it probably was what they wanted. It's not like only this particular axe will be able to do this. The way it works now and is shown to be working currently in bannerlord might not be accurate but atleast it works the same way for all the weapons making it fair in the sense on no clear draw back to an axe over a sword.

If you want to get into realism most swords were only ever sharped in the last 1/3 or 1/4 nearest the point, because why they hell are you close enough to hit him with any part of the blade nearer the hilt (If you wanna get that close use a dagger, of which you can make use of the point). Your hitboxes would then apply to all weapons for such a reason as stated above, and be fair but it makes dealing damage with a weapon so much more specific to the point of it would cause more problems than its worth.

For example the axe has a very clear ideal point of impact but as stated above with the realism you want, how would we know that the correct part of a sword had hit (audio que maybe but I cant imagine it being that useful in a high intensity fight)? 5 swings later and youve hit your enemy on the boundry point everytime and he hits you once and bye bye. It begins to reward lucky blows more than consistantsy.
Its unfair advantage when you are trying to facehug swordsman with axe's shaft while making serious damage with wood. We all know that left attack feint spam that places your weapons so close to enemy's nose(see previous screenshot) and how everyone do it.
TW made calradian swords sharpened 100% of length, so thats it, big hitbox.
We don't know how exactly hitboxes work in Bannerlord yet. Is it possible to register both hitboxes as 2 hits or not or only first one.

Keller said:
You want some realism? Ok. Let's make the horses and the characters die or bled to death after 1 hit. Let's make the characters die from dysentery, plague,... Some weapons could also slip from your hends if the weather is too hot.
Your character could have tendonitis after 2000+ hours on the game.
Its not even abour realism, its just about simple logic. Steel and wood impacts, can you dig it ? Steel hurts much more.
Sometimes its just ridiculous to read people who don't want any change and posting nonsense(for hours ?)
While in the year 2002 medieval arcade hack&slash was perfectly fine, 10 years later its not, because this whole genre evolved.
Anyway there is good ways to balance this out and make a better combat with proper hitboxes.


DanAngleland said:
You can already change grips on at least one Nord axe in Warband, so they've already not ignored that- as for Bannerlord, as I've already pointed out you don't know what mechanics have been included and what haven't been, so stop saying they've ignored us and betrayed us and so on!
If you mean 2handed grip and polearm grip on 1 2h axe that have nothing to do with proposed reverse-grip http://i.imgur.com/ABfq3sa.gif  Missed again.
There is no point for TW to improve combat if fanboys will spam everywhere "don't change anything, its fine"

DanAngleland said:
It's ironic that you called an unknown person an 'emo' the other day when you always sound so emotional and hyperbolic.
Wrong thread obviously or you just plucking my words out of context ? He is emo and was posting nonsense in other thread since about year ago.


MrNevino1 said:
Whoah whoah you play war of the roses? If anything that game is so much easier than warband lol the thing got horrible reviews and personally I thought it sucked. I find it hilarious that someone who plays a wave bad clone comes in here telling us what's wrong with his games original copy
I come here to tell you whats wrong and what must be fixed because I know better than you, pathetic troll :lol:
I've played all medieval games I can get my hands on since "Blade of Darkness" and most of the time I've played Warband & Vikingr, so go back under the bridge.
 
There will be decapitation yes or not for me i hope there will be decapitation,thats will make more fun the game throught like slice head off.  :fruity:
 
Kragen said:
Partizan_Rusi said:
don't change anything, its fine
:party:

vsJKbiB.png
 
@partizans comment: "No problem at all, at low hp enemy can just "pass out" or die from bleeding. Point is to not get instakills with long wooden stick."


That's a bit of a stretch, where did you see instakill from a wooden stick? Like i said before you don't know what the chars HP was at and don't forget the big sticky "WORK IN PROGRESS" that's on every video and image they've released.

For all we know they didn't touch the hitboxes at that point and were just showing animations.

There's just alot that we don't know so there is no point jumping to conclusions
 
in the warband beta, we had a new game to play every 2 weeks with the patch. So many good mechanics were added to fix oddities in that time period and make the combat we have now. They listened to and responded greatly to player feedback. I wouldn't have any worry about them ignoring people, imho they simply haven't gotten there yet.

Oh also when they say parry, I THINK they are referring to a mechanic that was in beta a few patches, where if you tap right click instead of holding it you got this sort of swap away animation that was supposed to act differently than a standard block. My issue with it was that you usually tap block anyway and don't hold down so it ended up being the default method of defense rather than skill based.

Wotr, vikings, chivalry, and kingdoms rise, all have lessons to offer and learn from. Probably melee battlegrounds when/if that comes out and also crpg (though i haven't played it in its latest iterations).

For example, I used to think that held strikes working like they do in warband, but having a longer charge time, would add a lot to the combat, then I played vikings for a moment and saw that it just completely obliterates any chance of confusing someone's block direction because you have to hold the weapon out for so long in one direction, its comically easy to block.  In order for that to work you would have to add another mechanic like charging up your blocks as well or something.

Wotr had some interesting ideas but unfortunately the engine execution of it was so bad that it was impossible to judge if the mechanics were good or not! They did get sprinting right and do a version of warbands. I remember arguing for it on the forums with them. In alpha they had a sprint hot key and a recharging sprint meter. I know some people are doing a fist pump of YES, THIS IS THE WAY, but in practice you ended up jousting with other players, hold sprint, hold a direction attack and run at them while attacking and you basically play the game every half second like you have a speed boost power up going all the time. It really broke things.

The gears of war rodeo run might work out, but I like the way they have it now a lot, it keeps sprint as something you might enter combat with once to alter things a little bit, but doesn't make the game into a dark souls dodge roll fest or a ww2 boom and zoom dogfight.

In my mind good melee was about controlling your space and range, which is another thing added in the warband beta. At first you could advance much faster than you could go backwards, this resulted in only allowing you to control your space going forward. People argued about it endlessly, but they left us with a really fast backspeed, and yes it does allow backpedaling shenanigans, but it also lets you better control your space around you and had added a lot to the game.

Chivalry had no weapon sweet spots, another feature added in the warband beta. They had issues with this (as I told the guy in alpha, to be dismissed... again) where when players discovered they could do full damage at the immediate start of their weapon animations.  This was compounded by the fact that when looking down the player model's torso bends forwards and down too, making overhead attacks basically start inside other players models, giving them instant and fatal attacks with no chance to defend yourself.

Another issue I had with chivalry was not using full hit interrupts. In chiv you could only interrupt another player if you hit them during their start up animation, which was very short. This was an intentionally design choice by the creator and I can respect it for that, he wanted his one handed weapons to be able to swing faster than the two handed ones. With full interrupts the very fast weapons could constantly poke a slower weapon user and prevent them from ever swinging.

What I didn't like about it was as a 2 handed user I could then effectively ignore what my opponent was doing. If dueling a person you could simply health tank them, I know they had less health than me, so all I had to do was just swing at them while taking damage and eventually kill them. In warband I love the race to first touch and being able to judge and confuse attack priority is a pretty amazing dance that was missing from chivalry. (Though as in beta we will see people angry about 2h and 1h swing speed)

Wotr did do the weapon head and shaft alternative damage on some weapons. I thought at first this was a novel idea, but the risk/reward of the difficulty of doing damage was way off. Again, hit and collision were the big issues with wotr so it might have been the net code, but it was pretty hard to find the right range for damage. I always had the thought too that if this were real life i could pull or extend my arms to get the axe head on target rather than swing like a robot the same way every time. That is hard to control/animate so it makes sense to extend the hitbox down the shaft a bit.

I think it could be an interesting mechanic, just would need a lot of testing and good hit collision, maybe. I think it would be something more interesting on polearms only though.

For my own suggestions, I wish they could come up with a way to reduce feint spam, like the modern pro feint spam. I remember playing around with it and concluding that it's really hard to do effectively and a great skill but it made the game into something I didn't want to look at. I honestly don't know how to correct it though unless you introduce some heavy block lag in the animation department, which would break some fundamentals, but maybe there is a solution out there, or just something we have to live with.

A more subtle suggestion would be to add an interrupt when you bump into someone that has been holding their attack for a few seconds. There was always a weird stalemate when someone has their weapon held chambered and your weapon is in the block position, you both kinda have to stand there until the attacker lets go of his attack. You can sorta slip away or twitch your block to force an attack but it is still a sort of awkward stalemate.

I'd love to see a ton of improvements to mounted combat, I'm really excited if they can do a lot there as I feel it is a really unexplored area of combat that could do with a lot of change or new mechanics.

I think deep down for on foot combat I think different attack stances for different weapon types would be the biggest change to combat that would keep the combat as excellent as it is now while introducing a ton of variety and new angles to discover.

Also more love for shield use, a way to make it more actively interesting. It should still be easy to use but perhaps have some benefits for direction blocking (like was attempted to add more durability to your shield when direction blocked).

Anyway, I know tl;dr post, but if you read this part its that taleworlds came up with all the mechanics that actually made this melee game as good as it is, and were open to experiments and player feedback in their open beta of warband. I have no doubt when they turn their focus on bannerlord combat they will pick up where they left off.
 
Combat System
The interview comments on the combat system being a bit easier to learn but harder to master than Warband. Armağan continues to say that they added some subtle stuff but didn't want to change it up too much. Gives more importance to legwork and timing and even talks about some attacks being faster if they're carrying the momentum of a previous swing.

Source
 
Partizan_Rusi said:
DanAngleland said:
You can already change grips on at least one Nord axe in Warband, so they've already not ignored that- as for Bannerlord, as I've already pointed out you don't know what mechanics have been included and what haven't been, so stop saying they've ignored us and betrayed us and so on!
If you mean 2handed grip and polearm grip on 1 2h axe that have nothing to do with proposed reverse-grip http://i.imgur.com/ABfq3sa.gif  Missed again.
There is no point for TW to improve combat if fanboys will spam everywhere "don't change anything, its fine"

So you were referring specifically to axes and polearms with two weapons at the head? How is that relevant to Bannerlord? We haven't seen any in the videos have we? We aren't likely to see that sort of weapon in Bannerlord either (axes with spikes on the other side), because they appeared later in the medieval period when a lot of plate armour was used. Besides, who has been asking for this niche feature for so long, apart from (apparently) you?
 
I absolutely love the idea of Directional blocking with shields. Perhaps change it a bit so that the shield will still block a swing from a different side, but make blocking in the correct direction somehow more effective- for example, the shield takes less damage. Intercepting a sword with the metal boss of the shield would take a much lesser toll then a blade hitting right on the edge.

Since Bannerlord is indeed focusing on a late roman/byzantine sort of period of warfare, the combat should reflect that. To the north the shield-wall was being developed, and in romanized lands the traditonal scutum and gladius were still a part of legionary doctrine even if the style of the equipment was changing. To reflect that, swords should have a more efficient stab than in warband. The floris mod pack includes something that accomplishes this nicely. Besides that, there absolutely should be a mechanic to allow people to stab and block at the same time as this was basic legionary doctrine. This would be a nice excuse to improve and expand upon shield-play in general.
 
A great and thoughtful post as usual Reapy, very stimulating  :smile:

Reapy said:
Wotr did do the weapon head and shaft alternative damage on some weapons. I thought at first this was a novel idea, but the risk/reward of the difficulty of doing damage was way off. Again, hit and collision were the big issues with wotr so it might have been the net code, but it was pretty hard to find the right range for damage. I always had the thought too that if this were real life i could pull or extend my arms to get the axe head on target rather than swing like a robot the same way every time. That is hard to control/animate so it makes sense to extend the hitbox down the shaft a bit.

Something occurred to me when reading this point Reapy- yes it is true that in real life you could adjust your hand position to shorten or lengthen the arc of your axe swing, but not when you had already begun an attack. I say this because virtually every time we swing axes in the game, we are doing so expecting to get the axe head on target. When it doesn't it is because we misjudged the distance or our opponent moved in an unexpected way. So whilst you might quickly shift your hand position in real life if your enemy parries your axe and gets up close and we cannot do this in game (except with a Nord long axe which makes the swing a little tighter), I don't think keeping nose to nose with someone for more than a second or two is easy in Warband, so the long axe man can make space for himself by turning his body and swinging or circling around the opponent. In addition, the two handed axes in Bannerlord, as far as I can tell, all seem to have the thrust ability to hit with blunt force with the top of the blade, a useful way to hit an opponent at point blank range. A potential alternative to down attack doing a thrust could be to perform an overhead that was very tight to the body, or maybe even a figure of eight swing just in front of the player (I believe this was a technique often used in real life in shield walls).

In the incident at the end of the engine power video last year, the axe man charges towards the enemy, they both swing but the axeman hits first, fatally, but the blade seems to go around the head; indeed the shaft hits before the head is even level with the enemy- he misjudged the attack because of the speed at which they approached each other. In this instance, it seems perverse to reward the axeman with full damage; he chose an axe, with its high damage stat and weight that make it so deadly, he should suffer the consequences if the head doesn't connect with the target. The axe in question isn't even very long, and the Bannerlord animations seem to keep the weapon quite close to the body, so it seems to me like the issue of hitting with the shaft wouldn't happen accidentally a lot if the change to hit boxes was made.


For my own suggestions, I wish they could come up with a way to reduce feint spam, like the modern pro feint spam.
A more subtle suggestion would be to add an interrupt when you bump into someone that has been holding their attack for a few seconds. There was always a weird stalemate when someone has their weapon held chambered and your weapon is in the block position, you both kinda have to stand there until the attacker lets go of his attack. You can sorta slip away or twitch your block to force an attack but it is still a sort of awkward stalemate.

I think that's a neat solution, I've come across this silly situation a lot.

I'd love to see a ton of improvements to mounted combat, I'm really excited if they can do a lot there as I feel it is a really unexplored area of combat that could do with a lot of change or new mechanics.

Do you have any ideas in mind? Thinking now, one thing that might make horse archery more fun and nuanced is rewarding shooting when all four hoofs are off the ground. I've read that in real life this is when stability of the rider is greatest and so is the point at which archers shoot. Perhaps this is something best kept toggle-able in the options.

I think deep down for on foot combat I think different attack stances for different weapon types would be the biggest change to combat that would keep the combat as excellent as it is now while introducing a ton of variety and new angles to discover.

Absolutely, that could really shake things up. I wonder if a wider stance for two handed spears, with one foot angled ahead of the other, would be good for wielding a spear quickly, giving it faster thrusts but not allowing side swings that we currently have. Rather than the same old dynamic that one has facing any long two hander of blocking in four directions, you only have thrusts coming at you but if the down block had to be activated for ones that landed below your waist, and the up block for ones above, it would be a challenge to defend against- just a different challenge to that posed by other two handers. Also the thruster could have two attacks; a normal 'up' attack that did a long thrust, while the 'down' attack did a shorter range thrust, with the avatar sliding the shaft back through his forehand to quickly and comfortable shorten its reach, representing the real advantages of a spear better than the current system.

Also more love for shield use, a way to make it more actively interesting. It should still be easy to use but perhaps have some benefits for direction blocking (like was attempted to add more durability to your shield when direction blocked).
Maybe the short 'block stun' should only occur if the defender places the shield correctly.
 
Sir_Newton said:
I absolutely love the idea of Directional blocking with shields. Perhaps change it a bit so that the shield will still block a swing from a different side, but make blocking in the correct direction somehow more effective- for example, the shield takes less damage. Intercepting a sword with the metal boss of the shield would take a much lesser toll then a blade hitting right on the edge.

Since Bannerlord is indeed focusing on a late roman/byzantine sort of period of warfare, the combat should reflect that. To the north the shield-wall was being developed, and in romanized lands the traditonal scutum and gladius were still a part of legionary doctrine even if the style of the equipment was changing. To reflect that, swords should have a more efficient stab than in warband. The floris mod pack includes something that accomplishes this nicely. Besides that, there absolutely should be a mechanic to allow people to stab and block at the same time as this was basic legionary doctrine. This would be a nice excuse to improve and expand upon shield-play in general.

Maybe you should take less shield damage for blocking correctly and more shield damage for blocking incorrectly? So you would get a damage bonus similar to the axe vs shield bonus even if you werent using an axe, which would also stack with the axe bonus.

As for blocking AND attacking as much as they did it, it is game breaking. The fundmental in warband is block and attack, if you do both it sort of bypasses everything.

@Reapy
A more subtle suggestion would be to add an interrupt when you bump into someone that has been holding their attack for a few seconds
Something like what happens when you run in to archers holding an arrow (works for javs too ect)?
 
They attempted that for a bit at the end of beta, having direction shield blocks reduce the incoming damage for the shield. I think it got tested and wasn't working correctly and eventually it got shelved as release was nearing.
 
Though that is balanced by the power of larger, stronger weapons to hit more than one foe with a single swing!
At least some improvement in Bannerlord. 2h weapons hitting multiple opponents confirmed.

DanAngleland said:
So you were referring specifically to axes and polearms with two weapons at the head? How is that relevant to Bannerlord? We haven't seen any in the videos have we? We aren't likely to see that sort of weapon in Bannerlord either (axes with spikes on the other side), because they appeared later in the medieval period when a lot of plate armour was used. Besides, who has been asking for this niche feature for so long, apart from (apparently) you?
So you are trying to say that there can't be no spiked weapons in Calradia ? In a fantasy medieval world :lol:

This kind of weapons must be really impossible to craft :

DpRauSq.jpg
 
PI3nNd6.jpg


This reverse grip mechanic is obviously easiest to implement, of course there was many suggestions how to change grips of the weapons. It looks like TW just can't do that, maybe its too hard for them.
Thats why i've only suggested what they can implement.

kuwhar said:
That's a bit of a stretch, where did you see instakill from a wooden stick?
http://i.imgur.com/Tc9YoIJ.png  Like every time I'm hitting some one with big 2h axe in Warband and mods up close and there is no point to deny this flaw, really.

trot888 said:
I'm just not looking forward to a stupidly slow and boring combat (War of the roses), there's no feinting, just click and block.
No feinting in WotR ? Thats just gross nonsense :] This game's combat consists of ready-up feints. Maybe you should play for few hours before posting that nonsense, it have free trial.

P.S.
RoBo_CoP said:
DanAngleland said:
We aren't likely to see that sort of weapon

Partizan_Rusi said:
So you are trying to say that there can't be no spiked weapons in Calradia ?
Trying hard right ? :] There is no mentioning that modders will add dozens of weapons and armor as soon as they can. If TW can't add late medieval armors then modders will.
 
Partizan_Rusi said:
This reverse grip mechanic is obviously easiest to implement, of course there was many suggestions how to change grips of the weapons. It looks like TW just can't do that, maybe its too hard for them.
Thats why i've only suggested what they can implement.

Clever psychology, maybe Taleworlds will read your post and think to themselves 'Oh yeah? We'll show him! We're going to make a reverse grip mechanic right now!'......or maybe they won't.

As Robo_CoP pointed out, I didn't say 'can't', but it is unlikely because Taleworlds said in blog 7 that Bannerlord is based on equipment and architecture from approximately 600-1100AD. I can't say for certain that there were no double headed axes/polearms at all within this time frame, but they are certainly associated with the late medieval period.

Obviously you don't believe it is too hard for them, it is just a bit of coding and a new animation. The question is, why would they make the feature? If a weapon type isn't going to be in the game, Taleworlds aren't going to work on animations for it- there aren't going to be any guns for example, so modders will need to make their own animations. Furthermore, I can't remember anyone asking for it apart from you, and I have probably read most of the Bannerlord related posts on this forum. To be blunt, they have no reason to do it. Although it would be a neat addition to the game, it really isn't a big deal is it? I don't understand why you act as if it is a major feature of the game that they are neglecting. It seems you are fond of the plate armour period, but unfortunately that doesn't look like it will feature much if at all in Bannerlord.

As you say, there will be later medieval mods for Bannerlord. If these modders agree with you, then we will probably see a new animation that reverses the weapon in the hand; there are modders who have done extensive animation work for Warband so the talent is available.
 
DanAngleland said:
Clever psychology, maybe Taleworlds will read your post and think to themselves 'Oh yeah? We'll show him! We're going to make a reverse grip mechanic right now!'......or maybe they won't.

As Robo_CoP pointed out, I didn't say 'can't', but it is unlikely because Taleworlds said in blog 7 that Bannerlord is based on equipment and architecture from approximately 600-1100AD. I can't say for certain that there were no double headed axes/polearms at all within this time frame, but they are certainly associated with the late medieval period.

Obviously you don't believe it is too hard for them, it is just a bit of coding and a new animation. The question is, why would they make the feature? If a weapon type isn't going to be in the game, Taleworlds aren't going to work on animations for it- there aren't going to be any guns for example, so modders will need to make their own animations. Furthermore, I can't remember anyone asking for it apart from you, and I have probably read most of the Bannerlord related posts on this forum. To be blunt, they have no reason to do it. Although it would be a neat addition to the game, it really isn't a big deal is it? I don't understand why you act as if it is a major feature of the game that they are neglecting. It seems you are fond of the plate armour period, but unfortunately that doesn't look like it will feature much if at all in Bannerlord.

As you say, there will be later medieval mods for Bannerlord. If these modders agree with you, then we will probably see a new animation that reverses the weapon in the hand; there are modders who have done extensive animation work for Warband so the talent is available.
They can't do this reverse-grip not only because they don't want to add simple animation and coding work, but also because it looks like Bannerlords hitboxes are like Lightsabers' straight  thin box on every weapon and hitting everywhere it touches (almost unchanged from Warband). So there is no point to change grip at all because you are hitting everywhere for full damage and even if you can switch damage type(slashing to pierce for example) it doesn't make any sense, because you have only 1 hitbox on 1 weapon.
Prove me wrong TW if you can.
 
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