Gamescom - Combat?? - Full Thoughts.
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Dryykon said:
as impressive as that video is, it really shows just how desperately the combat needs to be made less stupid looking
a lot of advanced techniques are based entirely on making the most absurd looking movements possible in order to confuse your enemy
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Scarf Ace said:
Yes but meh? How would the fix that without removing the mechanic that makes it happen? Don't think they can, don't think they should.
Scarf Ace said:
Was about to type something like that.
It's a game and there's that fun vs. realistic slider that needs to be set perfect. Every dueling video I see just makes me think how combat looks so unrealistic it's hideous.
I'd rather they improve the combat system and make us all learn and try and perfect it like we did with Warband.
Hideous maybe. But very technical and high skilled. For me that's what makes this combat system good.
As you said Glorvalhir, we all learnt it, we all perfected it. And now it's very high skill. You have to think and react fast, but there's not alot of room for error in finger coordination either.
If a combat system as deep, fun and amazing as Warband has, requires stupid looking animation, I really couldn't give a ****.
As you said Glorvalhir, we all learnt it, we all perfected it. And now it's very high skill. You have to think and react fast, but there's not alot of room for error in finger coordination either.
If a combat system as deep, fun and amazing as Warband has, requires stupid looking animation, I really couldn't give a ****.
It's not as technical and high skilled as a fighting game with a really big competitive community though. In terms of APM and timing and stuff it doesn't really stand up to games like SF or even SSBM.Le Roux said:
And depth can be added in ways other than weird animations. If I was the guy designing the combat system I'd try to keep the general spirit while looking at reality (HEMA, historical resources) to create guidelines as to how the combat should look and feel while keeping everything nice and playable.
I think basing combat more on reality both in terms of looks and the general flow would be a great thing. Here's a video of two HEMA guys using pretty much the same sort of weapon as in that duelling vid. Does this look boring to anyone?
(fight starts 3 minutes in)
Yeah, but the stupid looking animations really **** up the realistic side of the fun vs realistic slider.Le Roux said:
I hope it can be made to be deep and appealing to learn as it is but more realistic so it can satisfy both people that share your opinion and people that share mine.
My point about how high skilled it is was that even if the combat system was to be changed, the community would learn and perfect it and make it high skilled again.
Also, if it were up to me, I'd make even less room for error and thus more room for perfection
Scarf Ace said:
First I don't think there is a 'fighting' game with a really big competitive community in the sense of combat we are talking about (medieval), and Warband likely has the biggest in this genre.
If you look at other games outside of this of course there are many with larger competitive scenes but a game doesn't become 'big and competitive' because it has a difficult combat system - the combat system merely has to require the individual to become more skilled than others for it to be eligible for competition. Players get edges over others and become 'more skilled' through a variety of things - learning maps, learning characters (LoL and DOTA as examples), discovering all the mechanics, muscle-memory through repeated action, fast reaction times, quick-thinking (good, fast decisions).
To just name a few.
I'm afraid that the only way to remove the 'weird animations' and still keep a high skill bar would be to speed up sword swings or decrease health a significant amount. Your video shows people backing off and circling, waiting for the right time to go in and attack, then there are 3 or 4 swings then someone's hit and that's it. Warband duels can last minutes, hundreds of swings can go either way and both players can still be alive because you can become more skilled at swordfighting in the game than is possible in real life simply because irl we are human and can't move a sword like that.
Removing complex feints would allow more new(er) players to pick up the system and actually be able to fight with the current high-speed, fast feinting duellists. I think it is worth pointing out that some top duellists in Warband do not use fast feints like ISIS and Peter do - SouL or M as an example, occasionally they use a quick feint but primarily they play slow and smart and are able to defeat their opponents in this way. M is the most successful duellist of all time it is also worth adding and so it can't be disputed that fighting as you would like it can be effective as for a long time M dominated the duel scene. However, most players choose to adopt fast feints in some form because it's a skill you can learn and that is useful, if you do it too much you can easily be countered but doing it the right amount really helps to win a duel.
I can absolutely assure you that if by Actions per Minute you include mouse clicks, ISIS probably does several times as many clicks as (from my google search - Super Smash Brothers Melee) SSBM players.
With basically every other game (exceptions like CS:GO yes) you press a variety of buttons for different skills, or there are preset combos that you use to pull off moves, not saying it doesn't take skill to memorise the combos and to know when to use them, but I'm saying that's not what Warband is. In this game, you have attack and block (in duel; exceptions for cav with couch-lance) and you use these two buttons to create incredible feints that (in the case of some high level players) you have created yourself. The feeling when you've spent the time developing a movement with your weapon that catches people out yet is also fast and then learning to be able to do it on demand (keep in mind that one misclick, mis-movement or slow clicking can completely mess up a feint) takes incredible skill and is something that I love Warband for. It truly is a players skill that wins them a duels, not the memorisation of some pre-made combos, not pressing a variety of buttons that do different skills, but it simply being all about what the player can do.
It would be easy to create a combat system for a game like Warband where you press a button and it does a feint on demand. You could press 1 and suddenly you'd be doing something that in actual Warband can take dozens, if not hundreds, of hours to perfect. That's not what I want, I want what we've got here. Even if they tone down the feints a bit, it's only going to mean we get an increase in chamber usage as well as holds, which ultimately will slow down the pace and could cause duels to last regularly over 10 minutes (if they remove the feinting at high speed almost entirely); I'm ok with a smoothing of the animations and in doing so perhaps slowing down the feints a bit and preventing such amazing things as we have here, as long as it doesn't go so far as to make great things like that impossible.
You guys want the different things. Gibby wants this game to be big and competitive, but some other guys want this game to be more realistic. It's just a controversy between the casuals and the competitive ones, so no point in arguing, rly.
Though I hope TW will do it in Gibby's way.
Though I hope TW will do it in Gibby's way.
Funny, that some casuals talk about making the game more complicated as if they were able to kill someone in WB(except for Dranton)
Here we go:Scarf Ace said:
Okay, you've heard this argument before, and I know it's a **** argument to make. Won't make it again because there's no point repeating it.
I don't think you are skilled enough at the game to say APM and timing are not important. APM maybe not that much, but who cares. If we're getting other games involved, I can say Hearthstone or CS GO pros don't have SSBM levels of APM either.
This game is fundamentally different to SF or SSBM, there's no point comparing APM. It's also not 1v1 or 2v2 all the time. Competitive meta is 8v8. Try playing SSBM or SF 8v8 in a controlled way. It won't work. And timing is probably the most important thing in the game. Like really, not even kidding.
If you think that the weird animations are what makes this combat system so good, please tell me and I will just stop responding. Because that's something I don't think we can argue about.. lol
Alright so what I said in my earlier post was that I don't mind the animations if that's what it takes to get me such a deep and fun combat system. What that means is that if they manage to have both a sick combat system and solid, good-looking animations then I'd be all for it. Who wouldn't? I said I was concerned about making things prettier while making them more boring.
No that doesn't look boring to me. But it does look like something I'm not looking for in a game. If that's the kind of game you're looking for, maybe you can take a look at Blade Symphony?
Well, we are expressing our opinions.
Sad that your opinion is that this game can't be "big and competitive" without being more realistic.
Seeing a guy thrust and hold a 2 handed sword in the air, twirl it around for some time, change swing directions swiftly a couple of times, whilst he himself is turning around is so unrealistic that it kills the fun for me and makes it a bad medieval fighting centered game. I'm not saying that all of the combat looks unrealistic, but stuff like that really does.
You should also remember that this is a Singleplayer as well as a Multiplayer game.
Regarding the high skill level, the "competitive" players don't want change cause as Gibby said it took time to master it and it distinguishes players in skill.
Now my point is that a slight bit of realism won't kill the depth that Warband has in it's fighting system, and as Scarface said "depth can be added in ways other than weird animations".
Also my previous point is, if there was to be something new to the combat system it could, would, be perfected by the MP community as Gibby explained the perfection of the current system.
xoxo Iru
Sad that your opinion is that this game can't be "big and competitive" without being more realistic.
Seeing a guy thrust and hold a 2 handed sword in the air, twirl it around for some time, change swing directions swiftly a couple of times, whilst he himself is turning around is so unrealistic that it kills the fun for me and makes it a bad medieval fighting centered game. I'm not saying that all of the combat looks unrealistic, but stuff like that really does.
You should also remember that this is a Singleplayer as well as a Multiplayer game.
Regarding the high skill level, the "competitive" players don't want change cause as Gibby said it took time to master it and it distinguishes players in skill.
Now my point is that a slight bit of realism won't kill the depth that Warband has in it's fighting system, and as Scarface said "depth can be added in ways other than weird animations".
Also my previous point is, if there was to be something new to the combat system it could, would, be perfected by the MP community as Gibby explained the perfection of the current system.
xoxo Iru
Have you ever seen a bot in the singleplayer 'change swing directions swiftly a couple of times, whilst he himself is turning around'? I haven't. So what is the problem?
I can't really get the point of casuals who wanna make the game more complicated, cuz you guys don't really know how much complicated Warband combat system is.
I can't really get the point of casuals who wanna make the game more complicated, cuz you guys don't really know how much complicated Warband combat system is.
I guess it should be said that 2h dueling is pretty niche and one of the least played and least important part of the game (no QQ duelists plz you love it but most warband isn't duels) the 2h animations are retarded true and you shouldn't be able to stab through the floor but I really hope they focus more on actual useful fighting like shield and sword and archery (which to be fair are ok).
The system just needs some polish and upgrades already in other mods like dead body soak so you don't insta tk if a guy dies just as you hit him or being able to overhead pole arms through at team mate.
Stuff like retarded duel feints and crazy 360 spin stabs are the least important things to fix imo.
Edit fk phone auto correct and removing whole lines...
The system just needs some polish and upgrades already in other mods like dead body soak so you don't insta tk if a guy dies just as you hit him or being able to overhead pole arms through at team mate.
Stuff like retarded duel feints and crazy 360 spin stabs are the least important things to fix imo.
Edit fk phone auto correct and removing whole lines...
Also sad that you need to differentiate people by casual and non-casual and think that that changes something in someone's understanding of the mechanics. I'm an online casual (like to play on ZHG Siege most of the time, sometimes on IG) who has played/is playing competitive. Going from online casual player to online competitive player isn't that hard, I think I played well for FF keeping in mind that it was my first competitive experience.Silvernj said:
My SP and MP comment was towards your "big and competitive"
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