Feminism

[Calradianın bilgesi]

Minors shouldn't even be considered minors at all!

Your argument is:
i. Parents have a right to know if their daughter has an abortion.
ii. This policy doesn't let parents to know that their daughter has an abortion.
iii. This is an illegitimate policy.

The problem is, the alternative doesn't let parents to know as well. So many children throw themselves from stairs, get poisoned by so called abortion medicines or die from complications resulting from illegal abortions. Just think for a second why a minor may not let her parents to know why she's having an abortion? There is a good chance that she's VERY frightened from her parents' reaction. If they're that frightened, than they'll consider other options before telling their parents. And I don't know if these options are really desirable.

 

[Dystopian]

I agree with letting them have an abortion, just read my posts mate.

Agreed, if they want they should be able to go through with it "its their body,"but not informing parents is a huge infringement on family authority and structure.

Did you have to sum up my argument like that so it would be easier to attack? Because I think my argument was slightly more complex that just that. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't hide the familial consequences of the girl's idiotic decision from her just because its uncomfortable. Lets not lie to ourselves like parents would murder a pregnant daughter in America. The parents have a right to know no matter how **** uncomfortable it is. Just like abortion, pregnancy is a choice. Don't bring up rape victims like its a kryptonite to my post.

 

[Almalexia]

Lets not lie to ourselves like parents would murder a pregnant daughter in America.

Do you honestly not think this happens, or am I misreading you?

 

[Dystopian]

Not on a wide scale, no. Do you find that hard to believe? It happens but just because it happens in a relatively few cases doesn't mean we change the law for everyone.

Edit: Simply provide a source for that claim, and I will believe you. For now however I do not believe there is an epidemic of parental-daughter murder because of pregnancy in America, last I checked.

 

[Evelyn]

By that logic, should we allow children to get legal sex change operations without notifying the parents? There are people out there who would definitely murder their children if they brought such topics up to them.

Because dysphoria-induced suicide is the better option, right?

 

[Almalexia]

It happens but just because it happens in a relatively few cases doesn't mean we change the law for everyone.

Now I don't think you know how legislature works. 

That said, besides outright murder, easily thousands are turned out of their homes due to pregnancies out of wedlock, or desire/acquisition of an abortion. They might end up in a shelter, or manage to hook up with some friends who managed to get an apartment together if they're lucky, but their future is ruined. Or if they're unlucky, they end up on the streets, homeless.

Now then, confronted with these possibilities, compounded with the extraordinary stresses of motherhood, the parents not knowing is obviously preferable.

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

@dystopia
I don't tell that you propose banning abortion. I'm telling that if you force girls to tell their parents, many will choose not to because they fear the reaction of their parents. So many will have abortions illegally.
Preference for children of liberal families:
Professional abortion, parents don't know>Professional abortion, parents know>Underground abortion, parents don't know>Underground abortion, parents know

Preferences for children conservative families:
Professional abortion, parents don't know>Underground abortion, parents don't know>Professional abortion, parents know>Underground abortion, parents know

Alaska state policy, pregnant girl's options:
Professional abortion, parents don't know
Underground abortion, parents don't know

Dystopian state policy, pregnant girl's options:
Professional abortion, parents know
Underground abortion, parents don't know

So in Alaska every girl will choose the first option. In Dystopian state, girls from liberal families will choose the first option and those from conservative families will choose second option. In Dystopian state you end up with the tragedies of pregnant girls who suffer serious complications because they feared telling their parents and didn't have a proper abortion. I think my argument is clearer now.

 

[Dystopian]

Well I was exaggerating about the legislature and you know that since you are an intelligent human being (I apologize for not jumping into legislative jargon and the process that state law is proposed passed and implemented). Those things are horrible, so why did the girl choose to become pregnant in the first place? Isn't that what we should be combating instead?


Ninja'd

I definitely can see it more clearly now my friend, thank you for taking the time to do so. I can even see the allure of said argument. This is very stimulating.


PS. Oh my God did you just change your avatar! It looks fabulous!

 

[Almalexia]

Edit: Simply provide a source for that claim, and I will believe you. For now however I do not believe there is an epidemic of parental-daughter murder because of pregnancy in America, last I checked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_pregnant_women

Homicide is the leading cause of death for pregnant women in America. That's for all pregnant women, mind. One can easily assume minors may have higher rates of being victim to homicide due to the reasons and societal factors provided before. To illustrate the disparity: "Homicides accounted for 20% of deaths, compared to 6% of deaths among non-pregnant women of reproductive age."

Those things are horrible, so why did the girl choose to become pregnant in the first place? Isn't that what we should be combating instead?

Whew, now we're going deep down the rabbit hole. You do you, but you're definitely summoning the wrath of Jhessail with this line of argumentation, and none of us will be able to save you.  Personally not interested in debating it though, its been done to death way too many times.

PS. Oh my God did you just change your avatar! It looks fabulous!

I did, thank you very much. 

 

[Evelyn]

Well I was exaggerating about the legislature and you know that since you are an intelligent human being (I apologize for not jumping into legislative jargon and the process that state law is proposed passed and implemented). Those things are horrible, so why did the girl choose to become pregnant in the first place? Isn't that what we should be combating instead?

This implies that all pregnancies are, first off, intentional. Most planned pregnancies don't result in abortions anyways. If you're asking "why do teenagers have sex", well, that should answer itself. A lot of pregnancies tend to result from that in America especially because of subpar sexual education championed by "BUT BUT BUT! THE CHILDREN!!!"-type conservatives who think that abstinence until you're 80 is actually viable and the Will of the Lord Thy God™

 

[Dystopian]

Thank you, though I don't think its as definitive as you make it out to be. It has no mention of parental/familial murder and it has conflicting studies in the small page itself.

Ex.

However, according to the CDC "The pregnancy-associated homicide ratio was 1.7 per 100,000 live births".[10] In other words, the chances of a pregnant woman being murdered was around 0.0017%.

However, a study by Jeani Chang and coworkers, published in the American Journal of Public Health, showed that pregnancy associated deaths reported by the CDC underestimate the problem. According to their data, the rate in Maryland is 10.5 per 100,000 live births, a much higher figure.

But I will accede, I believe you are correct. The weight of the evidence seems to fall in your direction.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler

Well I was exaggerating about the legislature and you know that since you are an intelligent human being (I apologize for not jumping into legislative jargon and the process that state law is proposed passed and implemented). Those things are horrible, so why did the girl choose to become pregnant in the first place? Isn't that what we should be combating instead?

This implies that all pregnancies are, first off, intentional. Most planned pregnancies don't result in abortions anyways. If you're asking "why do teenagers have sex", well, that should answer itself. A lot of pregnancies tend to result from that in America especially because of subpar sexual education championed by "BUT BUT BUT! THE CHILDREN!!!"-type conservatives who think that abstinence until you're 80 is actually viable and the Will of the Lord Thy God™

I agree, sexual education reform is needed. It is part of the problem.

 

[King Richard]

I agree, sexual education reform is needed. It is part of the problem.

Kids learn about sex anywhere, so...

 

[Evelyn]

Not necessarily in safe ways. Combine that with poor access to help centers, information resources, and contraceptives, especially in poor areas, and you've got a mess somewhere other than your hands. You can't stop teenagers from having sex, it's possibly the most human thing there is. The best you can do is make sure that all participants know how to do it safely and responsibly.

 

[Dystopian]

I agree, nothing should be done for the upwards of 80% single motherhood rate of the black community (probably the biggest cause of that minority's poverty). They are gonna learn to **** anyway, who cares.

EDIT: 72% percent, I didn't want someone blind****ing me.
EDIT2: @KingDick

 

[Evelyn]

Uh, was that reply for him or for me?

 

[Almalexia]

Thank you, though I don't think its as definitive as you make it out to be. It has no mention of parental/familial murder and it has conflicting studies in the small page itself.

Oh certainly, there is a dearth of studies on the issues, which I think is a damn shame, and the page notes that statistics are rare (one can speculate on why), but the general trend of the evidence points to a higher homicide rate among pregnant women than non-pregnant women. I think we've already covered our bases on why that would be. If its only a question of what degree this is, I don't think that's a terribly meaningful conversation, but I think we've more or less reached some accord on the issue at hand here.

 

[King Richard]

KingDick

 

[Evelyn]

Again with the reaction images? Is that because you've once again found yourself out of meaningful things to say?

 

[King Richard]

Again with the reaction images? Is that because you've once again found yourself out of meaningful things to say?

sorry, meaningful ? 

 

[crodio]

How do abortions affect people after they are performed?
I remember some time ago that someone was complaining about a proposal from a political party that wanted to provide "psychological support" to women that had abortions. The argument was that no one should need psychological support after having and abortion and so on.

Anyway, do you think that if there's some kind of discomfort with abortions today,. It will completely go away at some point, once it becomes a topic no longer source of debate?