Dual wielding combat

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This type of thread should include a poll, so people can just represent their opinions with a simple vote instead of all this sh*tstorm by two people who are going to disagree regardless.

Having an open discussion without any sort of way to measure acceptance is just pointless, a lot of people will simply ignore the thread or just not care enough to make their preference known by replying.
 
My bad, I confused your third point with your fourth point.
Maybe if I didn't have to wade through such a river of bull****, and have to juggle multiple threads worth of posts due to your ceaseless accusations, I could keep every single one of my facts straight instead of making an occasional mistake regarding what you posted pages back in one of them.

Then again, I've been noticing that you continually focus on minor details instead of staying true to the spirit of the conversation:
The accuracy of Google translate - even through you're the one using information in foreign languages, yet refuse to translate them yourself (big lol)
The translation of "tabletop" in Korean instead of the fact that you're getting information from a blog to support your dubious claims about history
Sounding off about how "extremely accurate" your claim was when you literally just copied the information of a graph you posted (that you didn't make)
3 entire posts about one claim I made about you that was wrong, when you've been making wrong statements and bad faith claims for weeks

You lose your ****ing mind when someone else makes a mistake, but false claims are you calling card friend.
Your reaction kind of suggests that you'd jump all over someone if you can prove they're wrong, so you must not have that opportunity very often since this is the first time you went on a self-righteous rampage (including addressing readers directly in a P.S, post, wtf).
I'll take your relative lack of interaction with my other posts as a sign that you only want to prove others wrong, instead of actually sharing ideas.

In any case, congratulations - you finally turned out to be right. One time.
Now if only you'd admit to yourself how many times you've been wrong -- and how many times I've dealt with you being wrong more graciously than you can deal with being right once -- maybe we can get somewhere.

Or I could just make three straight posts, raging about how you said "he's an amateur history buff that specializes in the Sengoku period" when there is zero evidence in his blog that he specializes in anything about the Sengoku period, and you just pulled that straight out of everyone-knows-where. And this time, anyone can follow the link and see firsthand, so you can't claim I'm making anything up. But unlike you, I won't subject readers to a rampage when I know I'm right and can prove you wrong.

Dude. Grow some self-awareness.

Out of all this spat, again, which I've decided not to continue in respect of other people frowning upon the hijacking of the thread:

(1) I presented the citations, from the material linked the books and research material that's available even in Amazon.com.
(2) I presented the data in terms of numbers and graphs, from the actual research material
(3) With 1 and 2, I backed up my claim swords were inconsequential and trivial in wars
(4) As for the rest of matters in contention, I challenged you to open a separate thread, if you wished to continue the conversation
(5) You even made up a straight-faced lie, to paint me a fraud, which i caught and proved wrong, and you had to retract

What material or evidence, or study, did you present, out of this entire tirade of you running off in tangents?

So let's cut the bullshi*, and I grow really tired of your games.

For the LAST TIME, you want your evidence and reasoning behind why Musashi was a fraud? Or go into other tid-bits like why the Japanese did not use cavalry as a military unit? Open a separate thread.

I'm not gonna waste time here, unless you open a thread, and commit yourself to it, and make sure you will show up in that very thread. It's for this exact goddamned reason -- people getting tired of thread hi-jacking -- that I suggested you open a separate thread if you really wish to go into it.



I'm making this final:

"Swords accounted for less than 5% of battlefield casualties. They weren't a factor in medieval Japan's battlefields, and subsequently, dual wielding swords is even more insignificant in actual battles. Useless, even. PROVE ME WRONG."

I've presented the data behind the claim.

Present your evidence, study, paper, numbers, whatever, that refutes my citation, or GTFO.
 
Anyway, probably dual-wielding happened a lot in the heat of battle depending on the situation, but I'd wager that only very few Samurai would do it outside of very specific circumstances (Musashi being one of them).

So, if you grab a bucket to throw at the opponent, in the mid of a chaotic battle, are you gonna dub it "Bucket wielding"?
The "heat of battle" is a really nice, convenient way of saying "not happens in regular military engagements."

(ps) Once again, Musashi participated in only one battle out of his entire life time -- Sekigahara, in 1600. He was 16 years old. There are no records of anyone of his name (or known aliases) claiming achievement. He was not from a particularly noble house that served as samurai to the major lords participated in the battle. This means he was a lowly foot soldier during the battle, as a part of infantry squads that acted in pike formations. After that, he did not see battle ever again. It's doubtful if he even had the chance to wield a sword in real battle.


Since they didn't use shields, it's likely that dual wielding granted them a good defensive weapon in certain situations, which would be under yet another layer of circumstances given swords were the backup weapon (like a pistol).



Good luck dual wielding against that.

Major inaccuracies in depiction of 'cavalry,' but the infantry battle is usually praised to be very well depicted.

See, the thing this "fool" likes to "preach" is that you people have way too much fantasy into Japan -- as if their military somehow defies the universal trend of warfare that all the realms of the Western world went. You think for some mysterious reason, Japanese samurai and ashigaru were able to do fancy Bullshido crap on the battle field, when the western armies have long since moved on toward large-scale, regular armies with well-trained mass infantry formations.

The crap you are saying, is the same as saying "Oh, you could use a sword and main-gauche in front of Swiss-style PUSH OF PIKES. It could work!" War doesn't work like that. Battles don't work like that. The samurai are not formidable warriors because they could do some fancy, exotic styles that the western armies never even thought of doing. They were capable and formidable warriors because they adapted the newest and most advanced combat strategies and methods. They're logical, reasonable people trained as professional soldiers. And WTF kind of trained military man thinks of teaching a !&@*#! useless technique to use two swords against a PUSH OF PIKES?

Your views are a type of orientalism.


If you follow too hard on this path without recognizing those two points the fool will try to exploit it endlessly, that's why I've decided to share the little I know about it.

And little, you do. Sorry for being all preachy, and I'm sorry this is so cringey.

But dual-wielding has no case in battle. Both West, or East.

People don't do that shi* in the West because it doesn't work in army-sized battles. And people don't do that shi* in the East as well, because what doesn't work in the West doesn't work in the East either. Europe's soldiers knew this since forever. So did Asian soldiers. They're not stupid, nor caught up in samurai fantasies like you guys are.
 
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Filipino Martial Arts Eskrima aka: Kali
Mainly used by commoners dual wielding knives, short swords, sticks

F098A28A68EEC1298584110C86CD6A1EB39B0EEA


How many Filipino tribal soldiers, do you see using eskrimas or dual-wielding weapons?

All I see is ... shield.. spears... oh geez, spears and shields again?
 
F098A28A68EEC1298584110C86CD6A1EB39B0EEA


How many Filipino tribal soldiers, do you see using eskrimas or dual-wielding weapons?

All I see is ... shield.. spears... oh geez, spears and shields again?
Those were soldiers, as I said "mainly used by commoners" dual wielding makeshift weapons like knives, sticks, bolos. During those times they would raid eachother and commoners would use eskrima to fight using what they had inhand1
 
(1) I presented the citations, from the material linked the books and research material that's available even in Amazon.com.
(2) I presented the data in terms of numbers and graphs, from the actual research material
(3) With 1 and 2, I backed up my claim swords were inconsequential and trivial in wars
(4) As for the rest of matters in contention, I challenged you to open a separate thread, if you wished to continue the conversation
(5) You even made up a straight-faced lie, to paint me a fraud, which i caught and proved wrong, and you had to retract

1) You linked a blog post from a random Korean "history buff" that you also embellished as a specialist in the Sengoku era. You also linked a single book, in Japanese, that advertises and showcases its "DiD YoU KnOw EvErYthIng YoU ThOuhgT yOu kNew abOut JaPaneSe HIstOrY iS WrOng?" stance to sell copies. There's a difference between providing quality sources, and drivel you dredged up from the dark recesses of the internet.
2) See point 1. Also, I have to hand it to you: although you're learning about what does and does not make a good source, at least you're trying to source your statements. A large improvement compared to your previous posts over the past weeks.
3) Do you really think that any weapon that found use on the battlefield is "inconsequential" and "trivial?" I mean you have this weird dislike for swords, and try to portray me as this sword fanboy, when all I've ever done is say your bias is wrong. You seek to turn the tables by making me look like the one with odd fetishes for certain weapons and bias against others; the reality is that I think every weapon is valuable and earned its place if it was used for a long period of time. You're the one who worships spears. hates swords, wants to turn every discussion remotely related to weapons into an anti-sword/spear-fap session. I'm just here to say you're not only factually incorrect, but you have very odd views.
4) You're doing it again: repeating statements/ challenges/ lies (this time its a challenge) which I've already addressed in detail. You wait a while and then repeat your nonsense as if I didn't already devote my time and effort explaining why I'm not going to make a new thread. And then you pretend I'm "scared" instead of insisting on you respecting my clear, thoughtful reasons why I'm not giving you a platform. We've been over this, you're just pulling a classic kweassa again.
5) I didn't "make up" anything, I confused two similar sentences that you wrote in the same post. But you continue to hammer and bemoan and focus and lie about and exaggerate one mistake I made about a post you wrote. Don't you see that people with brains can clearly see you're so desperate for validation and a legitimate opportunity to "prove me wrong" that you can't let that go? How many times are you going to mention a small mistake in memory that I had -- which has zero bearing on the topic of this thread, the validity of your arguments, or the facts surrounding both history and our claims to know them -- before you find something else to occupy your time?

By contrast, you give me a virtual feast of opportunities to point out where you've been wrong. You are so attached to one particular because that is the only legitimate time you were right about me being wrong.

I feel a little bad for you because I genuinely get the impression that you think you're right, even though most neutral observers can pick up on things like loaded questions, unfair comparisons, faulty logic, and bad faith arguments. Every bit of "evidence" that you've tried to sell thus far has fallen into one of those categories. Like, do you really believe Japan "never used cavalry as a military unit" or that "dual wielding has no case in battle" even though anyone can Google George Silver, or Musashi, or medieval sword and dagger combat, or just wikipedia search for a ton of weapons instructors, and see that they often reference it?

Mocking Google translate while refusing to translate, or even reveal what translator you were using, was max quality bait btw. I'm still getting a kick out of it.
 
How many Filipino tribal soldiers, do you see using eskrimas or dual-wielding weapons?

Are you seriously that dumb? No, seriously. Are you THAT dense, sir?

The guy says that there exists a school of combat among Filipinos that uses dual wielding...

And you post one painted picture as evidence that it didn't happen? It's like saying that because the artist didn't include a style of fighting in a picture (that has nothing to do with fighting) that the style doesn't exist.

Sometimes the level of absurdity you stoop to is excruciating
 
Are you seriously that dumb? No, seriously. Are you THAT dense, sir?

The guy says that there exists a school of combat among Filipinos that uses dual wielding...

And you post one painted picture as evidence that it didn't happen? It's like saying that because the artist didn't include a style of fighting in a picture (that has nothing to do with fighting) that the style doesn't exist.

Sometimes the level of absurdity you stoop to is excruciating
Oo nga mas marunong pa siya sakin1 eh history namin yan
 
...lot of worthless crap...

Still waiting for data, citations, studies. I see none so far, in the tirade of crap. Nor do I see you opening a separate discussion thread anywhere. You don't get to "address" a claim by making shi* up and just going "nuh-uh" -- I'm not gonna play that game any more. I'm gonna go into one issue at a time. And not going off into tangents unrelated to this thread without each points fully addressed and reaching conclusion, first.

So I've got no choice, but to go snobbish.

Swords were side-arms, and attributes to less than 5% of battlefield casualties in medieval Japan -- and this, by default, also means dual wielding in medieval Japan was hardly of any worth as a battlefield method. I've cited the studies, and numbers to back up the above claim, from an actual Japanese historian on this subject (which you have some problem with.. because some of the quotes were on a private blog... for some reason? lol)

Evidence. Citation. Data, to refute the above claim, please.

Either you refute with evidence, citation, data, studies, or you STFU and admit you have no way to refute it.

"Citations please."
 
Still waiting for data, citations, studies. I see none so far, in the tirade of crap. Nor do I see you opening a separate discussion thread anywhere. You don't get to "address" a claim by making shi* up and just going "nuh-uh" -- I'm not gonna play that game any more. I'm gonna go into one issue at a time. And not going off into tangents unrelated to this thread without each points fully addressed and reaching conclusion, first.

So I've got no choice, but to go snobbish.

Swords were side-arms, and attributes to less than 5% of battlefield casualties in medieval Japan -- and this, by default, also means dual wielding in medieval Japan was hardly of any worth as a battlefield method. I've cited the studies, and numbers to back up the above claim, from an actual Japanese historian on this subject (which you have some problem with.. because some of the quotes were on a private blog... for some reason? lol)

Evidence. Citation. Data, to refute the above claim, please.

Either you refute with evidence, citation, data, studies, or you STFU and admit you have no way to refute it.

"Citations please."

You're literally giving me blog posts and oil paintings as "data" and "evidence." And then asking me to supply evidence, when you've literally ignored entire posts filled with evidence when you don't feel like engaging. You've selectively chosen which of my posts to engage and which to ignore, and I don't respect someone who ignores my strongest points and then turns around and demands citations and data.

Until you prove to require of yourself what you ask from others, I'm no longer interested in giving you anything.
Once again, you've taken what I originally said -- that you are providing no sources or evidence for what you're claiming -- and turning it around. It's almost as if you can't think for yourself, and need to rely on stealing idea or parroting others.
 
Duel weilding is a gimmick for sure. Although it could be great if modders had the tools to use it even if it wasn't in the base game. I imagine many mods based on other fantasies could use such a feature.
Still waiting for data, citations, studies. I see none so far, in the tirade of crap. Nor do I see you opening a separate discussion thread anywhere. You don't get to "address" a claim by making shi* up and just going "nuh-uh" -- I'm not gonna play that game any more. I'm gonna go into one issue at a time. And not going off into tangents unrelated to this thread without each points fully addressed and reaching conclusion, first.

So I've got no choice, but to go snobbish.

Swords were side-arms, and attributes to less than 5% of battlefield casualties in medieval Japan -- and this, by default, also means dual wielding in medieval Japan was hardly of any worth as a battlefield method. I've cited the studies, and numbers to back up the above claim, from an actual Japanese historian on this subject (which you have some problem with.. because some of the quotes were on a private blog... for some reason? lol)

Evidence. Citation. Data, to refute the above claim, please.

Either you refute with evidence, citation, data, studies, or you STFU and admit you have no way to refute it.

"Citations please."
when you bring something from academia to support your claims I'll start to take what you say seriously, for now you're but an amusement on how Dunning-Kruger works on people that are partially informed. I've never claimed what I know about history, but I'm a BJJ and Judo black belt, so I know how to think like japanese, specially in "combat", during a fight, their martial arts mind-set. BJJ is more creative, though, so they've had rules, if Musashi dual wielded, means there were no rule against that, meaning that they were extremely likely to do it. You are just pulling a lot of strawman arguments, going back and forth not sharing information, but preaching your own belief, that's just ridiculous, hence a fool.

"Arguing with a fool proves there are two." so I won't say anything else.
 
when you bring something from academia to support your claims I'll start to take what you say seriously, for now you're but an amusement on how Dunning-Kruger works on people that are partially informed. I've never claimed what I know about history, but I'm a BJJ and Judo black belt, so I know how to think like japanese, specially in "combat", during a fight, their martial arts mind-set. BJJ is more creative, though, so they've had rules, if Musashi dual wielded, means there were no rule against that, meaning that they were extremely likely to do it. You are just pulling a lot of strawman arguments, going back and forth not sharing information, but preaching your own belief, that's just ridiculous, hence a fool.

"Arguing with a fool proves there are two." so I won't say anything else.

I've brought academical data, studies, cited the book, cited the passage, linked the amazon.com link to where they sell the book, and slapped on a scanned picture of the list that contains causes of casualty.

What academic evidence do you need more, that swords didn't play a significant part during the Sengoku Jidai?

I'd really love to know.

(ps) I'll pretend you didn't just say "I practiced some martial arts, so I know military history and what Japanese samurai thought of during the Sengoku Jidai."
 
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...more crap and excuses...
idea or parroting others.

Have you just elected yourself to completely ignore the citation from Suzuki and his works? I've brought you a list of casualties as studied by Suzuki Masaya, Japanese historian, cited the source book, linked the amazon.com URL to the book.

What data have you, to refute the casualty numbers and ratios I have cited from the book?

"Citations please."

I said I'm gonna go this one by one, and not going to let you run off in tangents. You don't get to simply walk away from the data you can't refute. Swords played a very insignificant role during the Sengoku Jidai.

f0049186_4d99f5dc06f6f.jpg


Prove it wrong.

(ps) If you can't read what the data means, tell me to translate it for you, instead of pretending to know what this diagram is about.
 
Don't get me wrong, this whole thing is very amusing, but how in the seven hells are you guys not tired yet? I mean I would be, knowing how the end result of this argument achieves absolutely nothing.
 
I think this graph has some problem to discuss about the possibility of dual wielding combat in japan.
Because, Sengoku jidai is a part of samurai's period.
Samurai's period is from 12C to 19C. So this graph that show a sengoku jidai represents one side of samurai's war and Bujyutu.
And more, 14C Japanese historical epic Taiheiki(太平記) depicts dual wielding combat of Nitta Yoshisada in Battle of Minatogawa.
So, dual wielding combat could be understood for Japanese people in samurai's period.

Sorry for my bad english, But I can understand Japanese as native speaker and find some problem of this discussion.





Have you just elected yourself to completely ignore the citation from Suzuki and his works? I've brought you a list of casualties as studied by Suzuki Masaya, Japanese historian, cited the source book, linked the amazon.com URL to the book.

What data have you, to refute the casualty numbers and ratios I have cited from the book?

"Citations please."

I said I'm gonna go this one by one, and not going to let you run off in tangents. You don't get to simply walk away from the data you can't refute. Swords played a very insignificant role during the Sengoku Jidai.

f0049186_4d99f5dc06f6f.jpg


Prove it wrong.

(ps) If you can't read what the data means, tell me to translate it for you, instead of pretending to know what this diagram is about.
 
I've brought academical data, studies, cited the book, cited the passage, linked the amazon.com link to where they sell the book, and slapped on a scanned picture of the list that contains causes of casualty.

What academic evidence do you need more, that swords didn't play a significant part during the Sengoku Jidai?

I'd really love to know.

(ps) I'll pretend you didn't just say "I practiced some martial arts, so I know military history and what Japanese samurai thought of during the Sengoku Jidai."
yes
 
I said I'm gonna go this one by one, and not going to let you run off in tangents. You don't get to simply walk away from the data you can't refute. Swords played a very insignificant role during the Sengoku Jidai.

I can disprove that chart with one simple concept. The sample size is incredibly small.


The chart documents the casualties of ~1500 soldiers. That's not even the results of a medium-sized battle, more like a large skirmish.
You can't base the trends of an era on the results of a skirmish, or even 5/10/20 battles.
You need long-term data for accurate long-term understanding.
 
I can disprove that chart with one simple concept. The sample size is incredibly small.


The chart documents the casualties of ~1500 soldiers. That's not even the results of a medium-sized battle, more like a large skirmish.
You can't base the trends of an era on the results of a skirmish, or even 5/10/20 battles.
You need long-term data for accurate long-term understanding.

There are things that, if they could be understood, there would be non need for you to explain
 
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