-
If you are reporting a bug, please head over to our Technical Support section for Bannerlord.
SP - Battles & Sieges Does anyone else think spears are utterly useless?
- Thread starter Pancakelord333
- Start date
Users who are viewing this thread
abc123456
Regular
The spear not only is weak for the player, but the way it currently works (thudding at point blank) allows the cheesing of enemy AI too. I demonstrated this in the video below. Bear in mind this is AI difficulty level 100 maximum too unlocked by a mod.
Now I will never fight spearman the same again. Just rush attack and you will win. They are only dangerous in a mass fighting scenario.
Now I will never fight spearman the same again. Just rush attack and you will win. They are only dangerous in a mass fighting scenario.
Nerethi
Recruit
This sums up pretty well what's to be said about spear in real life
Now we need a proper spear implementation in the game that brings the correct balance between realism, game balance and fun.
1 - Spears definitely need a thrust speed buff, for the sake of realism at least, and playability and fun too (then no need to increase damage i think, increased speed would do the trick
).2 - Spearmen need to learn a few trick on how to use spears :
- 2a) actually use their spear at first choice, only swap to secondary short range weapon when the enemy closes the distance
- 2b) thrust, bash, thrust again, (AI tweak) or increase the spear hit repel strength (mechanics tweak), depending on what's easier
- 2c) fight in at least two ranks : first rank thrusting low at feet and chest, second rank thrusting at head and arms above first rank shoulders while beeing positionned in staggered rows.
With these quite simple two/three points the spearmen whould become way more fun and realistic.
Optional further improvement :
- Switch between long and mid range by changing grip (note that changing from short to long is actually a thrust attack and going from long to med range can be done just while rearming after an attack)
- Fight on three ranks with rank 1 crouching with mid grip, rank 2 with long grip and normal stance, rank 3 holding spears above shoulders, all ranks in staggered rows. (this whould need a crouched stance too, there was one in warband, i have'nt seen it yet in Bannerlord)
so without changing complex things nor tweaking speed physics and damage, this would already make a spear wall something to be reckoned with.
Imagine a line of swordmen charging this three ranks spearmen formation, they'd be attacked low first, then mid, then high, the closer they get.
With the ability for the first rank to swap to a short range weapon (axe, seax, dagger or so) every sword man whould have to face 3 enemies in front of him, plus the attacks from the side, because the second spearmen rank can hit at least any of the three enemies in front of him while beehing shielded by the first rank.
Sounds ultimate, no ? so how to counter that then ? flank them ! face them with an equivalent shield wall to keep'em busy, then throw your cavalery at their back, or your archers, or anything you got. No formation is unbeatable, but at least they ought to be good at what their designed for
SigilFey
Recruit
Well...after watching that I can see what you mean. From a purely gameplay / fun perspective, that's certainly not what I would call balanced. And I think you hit the nail on the head about mass fighting scenarios. The big failing here is two-fold:
1.) The amount of "recovery" time it takes for the spear to reset after blocking is far too much, imo. If I need to wait almost a full second like that for my weapon to become responsive again, then wait for it to animate into an attack posture, then wait for a rather slow lunge animation to play out...only to cause a trifling amount of damage...I'm left with little reason to ever use a spear on foot.
2.) A spear doesn't seem to offer any other advantages to offset its lackluster offensive ability. For example...real-world advantages that could be added into the game.
I think the major issue here is not the "amount of damage" they cause, but the fact that spears in the game are not really being used for their intended purpose in actual war. (I'd say they have the impact-warfare part of spears and lances down: spears are excellent when used from horseback, especially if they can be couched.) When spears are used on foot, however, they were never really intended to be weapons one would "duel" with. Spears and pikes were always meant to be used in a shield wall or phalanx formation, and their purpose was battlefield control.
I line up a whole bunch of spearmen shoulder-to-shoulder, behind a solid wall of shields, with spears either resting on top, stabbing over the top from the rank behind the shield line, or protruding below the shields. Or, I create a phalanx for more aggressive maneuvers to drive the enemy back. My purpose with this formation is not to kill enemies so much as lock them down and make it extremely difficult for them to move. I've got a heavy shaft and sharpened tip -- I can definitely cause damage, as all the force behind every thrust will be focused on that tip. So, I am certainly still "dangerous"...but it's terribly easy to knock a spear aside. My chances of actually hitting someone that's actively defending is slim. A spear's primary advantages as a weapon are reach and leverage. More than "damaging" the enemy, I can push them around, all while staying out of the reach of most other weapons. If they try to run, I can quickly advance and make them engage me again. But even more importantly, I am going to be able to deny areas of the battlefield to the enemy. Historically, pretty much anything that had to take a spear formation "head on" would be met with a stalemate, followed by diminishing returns if they sustained their engagement:
- hand weapons, like axes, maces, or swords would not be able to close in enough to do much damage without taking a lot of damage in return, and the attacking forces were like to tire themselves out a lot more quickly than the defending spearmen.
- mounted units would be in a very bad spot, as their horses were very much in extreme danger, and the reach of the spears would negate the height and reach advantage of weapons wielded from horseback (including other spears wielded from horseback).
- archers would be largely ineffective because of the shields being packed tightly together. Arrows are expensive, and they're going to do very little against a shield wall.
- an opposing spear formation would, for all intents and purposes, get into a protracted shoving war. Both sides tiring out the other side while doing little but wrenching their formations around a bit.
- polearms, like halberds, pole axes, pole hammers, etc. could probably do some damage, as these are weapons designed to wrench shields off of arms and reach over the top of defenses...but they still need to close in first. So...tiring and dangerous for little return, again.
While people think of them as a version of the typical "sword", they're really not, nor can they be used the same way as one would use a standard arming sword or longsword. Greatswords are both too long and too heavy for that. They're primarily used in broad strokes to first out-lever a spear or pike formation and create an opening (sort of like parting grass with a stick), close-ranged troops push in with them, and together they break up the spear line.
Aside from that...spears don't really have any weaknesses. They simply cannot be used effectively for offense (not when compared to most other weapons found on the battlefield. In fact, when dealing with armored warfare, the only weapon that would be worse than a spear for offensive purposes...is a sword.)
So, I think the issue with spears in Bannerlord is that the AI is suffering from all of the weaknesses of the weapon, but using none of its strengths. I mean, let's face it, while the AI does seem to try to mostly stay together at times, once the battle is joined, AI tactics largely dissolve into "get 'em!"
_______________
TL;DR -
I'd either increase a spear's ability to attack more quickly, effectively "stun-locking" opponents if causing little damage, or I'd increase the amount of damage they put out overall to make them worthwhile on foot.
Or...they could code some specific spear tactics and formations into the AI...
Nerethi
Recruit
like i just described in the above post f.e.
Why is it difficult to implement AI melee combat that makes sense rather than random incoherent swinging?
It seems to me that all weapons should be able to be held out in front to deny enemy from closing in. As seen in all of the videos posted here demonstrating how a spear is used.
As it stands, mount and blade combat was originally fun for me when I was young, when it grew repetitive I listened to audio books simultaneously. Now, however I find it boring. The failure to give spears an adequate implementation is part of a larger failure to make combat interesting, which requires tactics as can be found from real life battlefields of the past.
It seems to me that all weapons should be able to be held out in front to deny enemy from closing in. As seen in all of the videos posted here demonstrating how a spear is used.
As it stands, mount and blade combat was originally fun for me when I was young, when it grew repetitive I listened to audio books simultaneously. Now, however I find it boring. The failure to give spears an adequate implementation is part of a larger failure to make combat interesting, which requires tactics as can be found from real life battlefields of the past.
abc123456
Regular
It's possible to make thrust attacks do damage by just having your weapon out, dependent on velocity. Kind of like Dying Light when you push zombies into spikes.
This then opens up a new issue of how to implement a balanced and workable parrying system for this kind of attack?
How do you prevent unintended misuse of this by running around and piking things like a human cavalry?
Some things in real life, when modelled to our current limitations of keyboard and mouse gaming may cause unintentional unrealistic and unbalanced side effects.
I think the parsimonius solution to spears is to get rid of the thudding when someone is face hugging you.
I truly don't know.
Possibly, a rethink of how armor works could resolve that. A naked/cloth wearing peasant should be impale-able by another running at them with a spear. However for damage to be done to a soldier wearing armor, a simultaneous thrust could be required. Different for an armoured horse, bracing the spear/pike could be mandatory (+ needing to outrange the lance of the rider) in order to deal significant damage(/kill) against it, which would be combated by maneuvering the horse around the pike formation rather than parrying it.
I hope for the best.
omnominus
Recruit
I've also seen AI use spears to great affect.
What I want to see is a spear wall or phalanx formation where spearmen could "couch" spears/pikes like they could back in Napoleonic Wars! It would stop cavalry from always just causally ripping through infantry lines. Also it would make those shield-less spear troops more viable. I figure the game already has a pretty good physics system so it could be pretty easy to implement.
What I want to see is a spear wall or phalanx formation where spearmen could "couch" spears/pikes like they could back in Napoleonic Wars! It would stop cavalry from always just causally ripping through infantry lines. Also it would make those shield-less spear troops more viable. I figure the game already has a pretty good physics system so it could be pretty easy to implement.
