That is the opposite of how it should be.
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SP - Battles & Sieges Does anyone else think spears are utterly useless?
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Decimus Drake
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I just got stuck in the arena with a spear. How did anyone design this and think "yeah this is reasonable"?
I actually genuinely like spears. They're not too difficult to use for the player and they can do a lot of damage pretty quickly. The problem is that the AI is awful at using spears, they can't be used in close quarters, and they can't be used in a tight formation. Part of the reason pikes and spears were so effective on the battlefield was because even in close distance, they still hurt, and more spears at once meant they hurt even more. Spearmen and pikes in tight formation were almost impenetrable by inf and cav because a wall of spikes meant a lot of pain, and shields were difficult to penetrate. The collision detection on weapons is also screwed up right now. Spears can't thrust with someone directly behind you right now, and other weapons can't slash, so spears are useless in shield wall, line, square, and circle formation, being most effective in loose formation. In fact, the most effective formation against cavalry right now, is loose formation.
So my patented solution is thus: Get rid of the limited collision detection on spears. If someone thrusts with a spear, thrust all the way. Maybe lower the damage a tiny bit, but right now, spears can't be used in formation, so that's the first step. More effectiveness along the whole range of the spear, and let units in formation use their spears. This lets them use spears against cav and inf right next to them. That simple.
Second, make the default behavior less clustery. Right now, infantry vs infantry fights are mosh pits. They'll get in each other's faces with no self preservation. In warband they would at least back up sometimes, but here there's nothing like that.
Third, let us order them to use specific weapons. The AI at least defaults to polearms against cavalry, but against inf they never use spears for the reasons above. Fixing those would then mean we'd need to be able to order them to use it.
Fourth, make the perk that pushes blocking units back with a polearm default behavior. This might be an unpopular change, but I honestly think it would be a good idea. It would make spears more useful in infantry fights and would give cavalry charges more Oomph. As part of this, they need to give units MASS. Otherwise there's no point, because cav can already just charge in with impunity and disrupt formations. Mass will probably be implemented eventually anyway, but this makes it even more necessary. I don't know if it actually works, but frankly I don't care, it would be cool.
Hope you enjoyed my wall of text. I really do like using spears. They have a lot of problems, but they're still quite effective if you know how to use them right. But not in the AI's hands. They could be so much more than they are now. I know it's early access so everything's bound to change, but I hope they take some of this into account.
TLDR; 1. Make spear effective at whole range and make the collision from behind more forgiving.
2. More space between inf while fighting, less mosh pits.
3. Order AI to use Pokey stick
4. Let polearms push blockers/formations back all the time.
So my patented solution is thus: Get rid of the limited collision detection on spears. If someone thrusts with a spear, thrust all the way. Maybe lower the damage a tiny bit, but right now, spears can't be used in formation, so that's the first step. More effectiveness along the whole range of the spear, and let units in formation use their spears. This lets them use spears against cav and inf right next to them. That simple.
Second, make the default behavior less clustery. Right now, infantry vs infantry fights are mosh pits. They'll get in each other's faces with no self preservation. In warband they would at least back up sometimes, but here there's nothing like that.
Third, let us order them to use specific weapons. The AI at least defaults to polearms against cavalry, but against inf they never use spears for the reasons above. Fixing those would then mean we'd need to be able to order them to use it.
Fourth, make the perk that pushes blocking units back with a polearm default behavior. This might be an unpopular change, but I honestly think it would be a good idea. It would make spears more useful in infantry fights and would give cavalry charges more Oomph. As part of this, they need to give units MASS. Otherwise there's no point, because cav can already just charge in with impunity and disrupt formations. Mass will probably be implemented eventually anyway, but this makes it even more necessary. I don't know if it actually works, but frankly I don't care, it would be cool.
Hope you enjoyed my wall of text. I really do like using spears. They have a lot of problems, but they're still quite effective if you know how to use them right. But not in the AI's hands. They could be so much more than they are now. I know it's early access so everything's bound to change, but I hope they take some of this into account.
TLDR; 1. Make spear effective at whole range and make the collision from behind more forgiving.
2. More space between inf while fighting, less mosh pits.
3. Order AI to use Pokey stick
4. Let polearms push blockers/formations back all the time.
I'll be honest right off, I haven't read the entire thread, but here are ideas that came up on another thread regarding spears:
Here are a few suggestions I would make to improve spears and make them a more viable option (I will likely read through the spear thread I mentioned above and post them there if they aren't there already):
Here are a few suggestions I would make to improve spears and make them a more viable option (I will likely read through the spear thread I mentioned above and post them there if they aren't there already):
- Enable grip switching from max range to a more balanced forward grip with both single and two-handed wielding.
- For sieges, prior to the enemy setting solid foot on the walls, I would love to have split spear divisions at breaching points that would use a rear grip to drain the liquid from the attackers' flesh sacks as the door to the siege towers drop.
- Also for sieges prior to breaching, thrusting downward at the attackers as they attempt to climb the ladders. This would be suicide if done without a shield, but whatever. I can hire more fodder later.
- I would also love to be able to poke a spear through near ground-level arrow slits to see how the archers inside like being poked with pointy sticks.
- Similar to the above, thrusting spears through partially broken gates (also shooting arrows through the cracks).
- There are gaping holes above the inner gates which are currently only minorly useful. Grab some pikes and define death from above. They honestly need to utilize those more. They just kind of sit there at the moment, waiting for some new player (or someone binge playing for 24 hrs or so...) to not pay attention and fall into the meat grinder below during a siege (No, this has not happened to me, but I could envision it happening... the next time I binge play...).
- Depending on the type of spear, they could also have some use in a swiping motion. A long-bladed spear could cut similar to a halberd, though only on exposed areas. They wouldn't have the strength necessary to cleave into armor.
- I would also like to see the possibility of spears/halberds breaking in battle. Heck, all weapons should have a chance to break, leaving the unit forced to use their secondary weapon, which would also have a chance to break, leaving them with the option of running to pick up a fallen weapon or fleeing the battle. Perhaps only managing to pick up a shield and resort to bashing opponents. Wow... I could really run with that thought (This happens in almost every thread where I start to go on tangents...)
I recently made a thread about spears such as where you hold the weapon (grip), speed, damage and handling. ( i forgot this post existed else id have posted it here)
to sumarise the main points of the discussion. i believe that spears should be held closer to the end of the weapon rather than using such a central grip. the point of a spear is its longreach. holding it so central means you lose alot of reach and so the weapon isnt as effective for its purpose. Holding a spear how the game currently allows us to would make your thrust damage stronger, your thrust speed faster and have alot more weapon handling, at the expense of range. however in its current state spears are slow, low damage, and have bad handling despite holding it so far away from the end. we lose range but dont gain anything.
A spear being used one-handed, i suggest, should be held about a fore-arms worth of length away from the back, so that the weapon can achieve its full length, while using any backspear to brace against the forearm to help with control of the weapon (larger spears will need abit more backspear but not as much as currently) using a spear twohanded at the moment still doesnt utilize anymore spear lenght than using it one handed. instead twohanding spears should allow you to place one hand on the very end of the spear, and the other hand should be near the point of balance of the weapon allowing you to utilize the full length of the weapon and have even faster and stronger thrusts, just as it should be.
there is more detail and discussion about these said points in the thread i created (which isnt very long, but its quite detailed in some parts)
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/wasted-spear-length-holding-spears-wrong.417683/ HERE
to sumarise the main points of the discussion. i believe that spears should be held closer to the end of the weapon rather than using such a central grip. the point of a spear is its longreach. holding it so central means you lose alot of reach and so the weapon isnt as effective for its purpose. Holding a spear how the game currently allows us to would make your thrust damage stronger, your thrust speed faster and have alot more weapon handling, at the expense of range. however in its current state spears are slow, low damage, and have bad handling despite holding it so far away from the end. we lose range but dont gain anything.
A spear being used one-handed, i suggest, should be held about a fore-arms worth of length away from the back, so that the weapon can achieve its full length, while using any backspear to brace against the forearm to help with control of the weapon (larger spears will need abit more backspear but not as much as currently) using a spear twohanded at the moment still doesnt utilize anymore spear lenght than using it one handed. instead twohanding spears should allow you to place one hand on the very end of the spear, and the other hand should be near the point of balance of the weapon allowing you to utilize the full length of the weapon and have even faster and stronger thrusts, just as it should be.
there is more detail and discussion about these said points in the thread i created (which isnt very long, but its quite detailed in some parts)
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/wasted-spear-length-holding-spears-wrong.417683/ HERE
Dr-Shinobi
Idk even if i got low skills on spears and uses em in ex castles or on the battlefield. I got the advantage to hold distance + even better to kill pesky cavalry easier when they try to sneak up on you. You can drop some good hits also on basic levels on foot when hitting their heads with an basic spear. So idk when you get much higher level with better spears what happens.
Guess I have to build a spear only foot commander (Akilles) someday to see if they really are that bad. On horse though they are wicked as hell but can be risky against other spears, but the lance is a killer for sure against both
But lances are bad on cqc so then spears are a good multi tool If they come close use shield bash then back and thrust...or to the sides. Maybe having a short sword or knife as secondary could be good depending on the situations and to gain good shield perks from on the side. Im playing with a knife character now and they are performing better then i expected so could be a good choice to get better agility lowering your weight.
Also you can stand behind the shield wall to thrust over towards their lines and hit their faces which deals good damage and doubles your lines effectiveness. How ever they should really get more perks in there that also helps out the thrust of your regular spears in the end game.
RE.Screw it im building my Achilles now and reporting in how i felt he performed being a spear guy with short sword/knife and javelin as secondary perhaps but cant be to heavy so have to be later when he gets agility up a lot ^^
Update; Its gonna be deadly later on i can tell you that already now! im doing 57-67 in dmg on basic skills to the body with thrust damage Menavilion spear T3 foot against foot (one handed) and im easily also being able to thrust thru my inf wall if needed but i prefer toe against toe action shield bashing and movement style. Thnx for the tip!!! its gonna be fun In fact the one handed spear is on the line to be a bit OP atm in SP, it performs better then my 2h axe when i did an berserker play thru in the beginning!! So no accordingly to my test its not weak at all..To me they are the most easiest and safest weapons to use in foot to foot combat and on horse to ofc if you dont have a polearm that is or want a good all rounder instead
Guess I have to build a spear only foot commander (Akilles) someday to see if they really are that bad. On horse though they are wicked as hell but can be risky against other spears, but the lance is a killer for sure against both
But lances are bad on cqc so then spears are a good multi tool If they come close use shield bash then back and thrust...or to the sides. Maybe having a short sword or knife as secondary could be good depending on the situations and to gain good shield perks from on the side. Im playing with a knife character now and they are performing better then i expected so could be a good choice to get better agility lowering your weight.Also you can stand behind the shield wall to thrust over towards their lines and hit their faces which deals good damage and doubles your lines effectiveness. How ever they should really get more perks in there that also helps out the thrust of your regular spears in the end game.
RE.Screw it im building my Achilles now and reporting in how i felt he performed being a spear guy with short sword/knife and javelin as secondary perhaps but cant be to heavy so have to be later when he gets agility up a lot ^^
Update; Its gonna be deadly later on i can tell you that already now! im doing 57-67 in dmg on basic skills to the body with thrust damage Menavilion spear T3 foot against foot (one handed) and im easily also being able to thrust thru my inf wall if needed but i prefer toe against toe action shield bashing and movement style. Thnx for the tip!!! its gonna be fun
In fact the one handed spear is on the line to be a bit OP atm in SP, it performs better then my 2h axe when i did an berserker play thru in the beginning!! So no accordingly to my test its not weak at all..To me they are the most easiest and safest weapons to use in foot to foot combat and on horse to ofc if you dont have a polearm that is or want a good all rounder instead
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There is no way I'm reading all that....
All I can say is Spears block too slow.
If they blocked faster you could defend yourself better.
All I can say is Spears block too slow.
If they blocked faster you could defend yourself better.
Dr-Shinobi
Loading up a sloppy spearmen showcase i did this recently this morning...... Not one of my best moments because im tired as **** and sick to but still we turned it around in a hairy situation and this is being played on Realism/Challanging mode and from an fresh character. Also sorry for the slow music because my Epic Greece mythology youtube playlist hit in to a nymph mantra at the time. Wish i had benny hill in the beginning then shifting over to something epic xD
Sure it can do low damage at times but its when you hit em in bad spots, they have armor to be accounted in for or you hit em wrong like you can do with every weapon...Also i did some mistakes on cqc and should have kept my distance but since i just came from a Berserker playthru i guess my old habits where kicking in
Second atempt but man it was a damn mess and how i survived those gang bangs two times 2;59 idk xD it was a miracle keeping that composure but the camel man saved my life rip brother
Sure it can do low damage at times but its when you hit em in bad spots, they have armor to be accounted in for or you hit em wrong like you can do with every weapon...Also i did some mistakes on cqc and should have kept my distance but since i just came from a Berserker playthru i guess my old habits where kicking in
Second atempt but man it was a damn mess and how i survived those gang bangs two times 2;59 idk xD it was a miracle keeping that composure but the camel man saved my life
rip brother
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Dr-Shinobi
and close quarters for good measure...but well it wasnt really that tight cqc but still
Laughed my ass off in the end because of that guy ^^
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I think that spear damage is one of the few cases where telltale is going for balance rather than realism.
Since it’s such a good standoff weapon, the damage is lower.
It’s best when paired with a faster shield though.
I honestly think you could make spears perfect by just upping their thrust speed.
I’ve crafted the fastest spear possible, which cannot be couched btw, and it’s still rather slow to thrust.
Since it’s such a good standoff weapon, the damage is lower.
It’s best when paired with a faster shield though.
I honestly think you could make spears perfect by just upping their thrust speed.
I’ve crafted the fastest spear possible, which cannot be couched btw, and it’s still rather slow to thrust.
Dr-Shinobi
Do you have max skills or well around 200+ in pole arm along with that ? Because weapon speed should be faster the longer you go. Im also doing 120 in damage right now on really good hits along with speed ofc but im only at lvl 100 so idk yet how power full one handed spearing can be
but to me it felt it was almost in class with the 2 handed axe in the beginning
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Mine’s 140.Do you have max skills or well around 200+ in pole arm along with that ? Because weapon speed should be faster the longer you go. Im also doing 120 in damage right now on really good hits along with speed ofc but im only at lvl 100 so idk yet how power full one handed spearing can be
Idk, I just find straffing and slashing very easy, but standoff thrusting it’s much more difficult when thrust speed is lower
Dr-Shinobi
Cool
well just keep distance bash em if needed as shown from that castle siege. Athletic along with weight is key since you need to be quick on your feet then you can just dance around em and backing off. Also when you get later perks you can thrust at em and they back off even more when hitting their shields which is good to have in case you need some distance (which you should all ready have called push back)...but im looking forward to the other one keep at bay. If its against another spear man that has longer spear i usually switch to knife to get in close instead. Well slashing isnt that just when switching to two handed from my knowledge ? i can only do it with mine by switching to two handed which is alright to with blocking but vulnerable against archers and other throwing weapons + harder to block with against multiple attacks and you cant reach over shield walls with it to
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sjblack2014
Recruit
No matter how good you make the spear by buffing its speed or reach or damage etc, without a proper "zoning" mechanic or a push-back mechanic, the AI will still suck at using them, since otherwise the AI insists on charging into facehug range into the enemy.
Dr-Shinobi
no as this video will show you in the end..and with that i mean that AI soldier tearing alot of guys down in a desperate attack with both sword and spear..
Ive seen em being really strong with em many times but you just dont see it if you dont really look. Sure they might not be uing it all the time when you really want it but hey thats life. Ive seen peasants with spear at times ripping alot of soldiers down and thinking man that guy if he survives this hes gonna be a hero one day xD
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sjblack2014
Recruit
I've tested many times a sword-shield formation charginst against a spear-shield formation. The sworders get into face-hug range in no time, and I'd have to eliminate the spears' minimum range, as well as fix the bug where they get blocked by shields behind them, as well as increase their speed, damage, reach (pretty pointless here) to ridiculous levels to even get an even result against swords. But by that time, they'd become extremely OP against cav.
Dr-Shinobi
yeah a fixed spear wall formation would come in use here and hope they are working on it
Dr-Shinobi
I wonder if spear only(no shield) infantry would do any better? I’ll try that this weekend, a pikeman only circle formation behind a shield infantry formation.
When the cavalry get past the shields and charge a pike circle, with no shields to get blocked on, hopefully the pikemen will actually be able to do their jobs.
If that works, I may even try putting a loose formation of 2h axmen in the center of the pike circle.
Could make for a decent cavalry deathtrap?
When the cavalry get past the shields and charge a pike circle, with no shields to get blocked on, hopefully the pikemen will actually be able to do their jobs.
If that works, I may even try putting a loose formation of 2h axmen in the center of the pike circle.
Could make for a decent cavalry deathtrap?
sjblack2014
Recruit
Well I've tested sending 20 T5 Vlandian pikemen against a caravan of 30 (mixed infantry and cav) in all sorts of formations. They get wrecked. This is *with* the spear buffs of reach/speed/no minimum range.
