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To be honest, Attila is my favorite TW behind Shogun 2/ FOTS, but as I said above, I just play the games without much interest in the variables of stats and wotnot. You ruin games by looking at the code, Jacob. How do you not know this by now? Everything's **** if you know how **** it is, geeze.
 
I don't look at the code. The code in Total War games isn't even viewable. :lol:

Even so, there are just far too many things which are absolutely impossible to ignore in Attila. Rome 2 has some annoying, contradictory mechanics (as do all the total war games) but Attila inherets those and takes them to an obscene level. I am stunned that so many players aren't driven to insanity dealing with them. Here are some of the worst, but there are literally thousands of them. I could talk about everything wrong with TW Attila for 5 hours.

- Agents. Agents have never been good in Total war, but in Attila they are able to perform infuriating actions against the player every single turn, with no way for the army to react without using agents themselves. The agents are chance-based and the AI gets ridiculous bonuses to their success chances. They spawn with top-tier agents and will invariably send agents across the entire map to harrass you, slowing your armies down, wasting turns and wasting your IRL time. It is impossible to keep up with the amount of agent spam the AI unleashes on you because even on the easiest difficulty, they get bonuses.

- The Campaign AI is utterly HOI4-tier retarded and is designed from the ground up to be superficially challenging, declaring war on the player even when in other wars. I've seen players get declarations of war from minor factions with enemy armies on their doorstep, and nothing to gain. If you're a horde, the AI will send armies across desolate territory to fight you for no gain at all. All of the AI's behavior is player-centric, and very often nothing of interest happens in the Fog of War. The Huns can often march straight through province after province of hostile AI territory if they're gunning for the player.
If you disable the FOW via a mod, you'll see how broken and buggy and impossibly stupid the AI is:
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/149355/all-knowing-and-obsessed-ai

- The unit cards and building cards are the hardest to differentiate since Shogun 1. They are all in different poses, sometimes with their primary weapon blocked behind their body or shield, and always far too dark to make out more than their basic silhouette. Don't tell me you can easily tell these two apart:
att_nom_hunnic_horse_archers.png
att_nom_hunnic_mounted_bows.png
The building cards are worse because they are meaningless screenshots of parts of the building. In Rome II, there was a very basic silhouette, perhaps an icon, to show exactly what the building does, along with a category colour so you could tell in five seconds what was inside a settlement. Conversely, tell me what this building does:
att_bld_nomad_city_1.png

- Graphical errors and visual messups. To date, there are still: Missing or misplaced textures, trees without LOD models, floating fences on just about every map, unit armour clipping galore, awful, amateurish colour composition compensated for by a brown postprocessing effect straight out of a crummy Skyrim mod, horrible optimization on many machines, nonsensical faction colour choices (especially the sassanids), excessive glossy shine on some things (roman helmets for example) with a dull glow on the same material on others (some barbarian helmets and armour).
You finna tell me these units look passable? FOH
2015-02-21_00007_zpsakivmnhb.jpg
2015-02-21_00006_zpswprmfufn.jpg
maxresdefault.jpg

- Unit upgrade system. The game decides that you are not allowed to recruit the old unit, leaving you with a tiny roster at all times throughout the game. Ironically the game clearly wasn't designed this way. Some upgraded main line infantry units have the "encourage" passive ability which gives nearby units higher morale. But if your main line is made up of these units, (cavalry and archers don't count because 1. cavalry are bugged to where they generally don't rout at all, and 2. archers will rout in melee regardless) what is the point of this ability if you cannot field anything else?
What's ridiculous is that the developers implemented this deliberately late in development to make it harder to get money. The developers actually came out and admitted this. Some of the upgrades are marginally more effective than the units before them, but they can end up having triple the upkeep cost. Often the stat increases are meaningless, like melee defence for horse archers or 3 bow shots for a shock cavalry unit.

- Turn based mechanics. Total war has had this issue since Rome 1 where the turn based system works against the mechanics, but it is really horrible in total war Attila.
Most calculated actions are activated at the end of EVERYBODY'S turn. The player always has their turn first, so the AI can and will exploit this to gain an unfair advantage, without giving you any chance to retaliate. For instance:
-- When you siege a settlement for one turn, you do damage to the buildings and render them useless for a turn. This is a dumb mechanic anyway, but if the AI besieges your settlement, you will receive damage at the end of everybody's turn, before you have any chance to react. Even if the AI besieges you with one unit, your entire city is out of action for a turn.
-- Generals. The AI can recruit a new general in some situations where it's not actually their turn.
-- Buildings/repairs/recruitment. The AI can build things and repair them in less than a single turn. For example you can besiege a settlement on your turn, and the AI will still be able to recruit, repair and build anything which takes a turn to do. The player cannot do this.

- The battles had so little QA testing that their quality level is worse than just about every mod for Rome II. Here is a playlist of videos documenting everything wrong with battles and how nothing is balanced or even QA tested. This barely scratches the surface. A guy with an anime avatar spent the best part of a year testing everything and found literally hundreds of unintended developer messups, like horse archers with hidden frontal shields and dozens of typos in the Unit stats file which made certain units completely useless.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLr7HLoRrUHO6uGlmahSbTCe4TPTd_BX2E

I get that you would be unlikely to notice these if you just play the battles "blindly", not paying attention to stats or even what is happening to your units, and instead just devising a defensive strategy and sticking to it (this is the way most people play). But it broke multiplayer beyond playability, and was never patched in any meaningful way. Here is HeirofCarthage a few days after the game came out, explaining some of the issues:


In conclusion, gaem sux lol. There are definitely worse games, but what enrages me about Total War Attila is that they had no idea what they were doing and screwed up in a million ways. The game has no cohesive mechanics and they are all game-y, static, uninteresting and actively work against the player in a completely unfair manner.
 
Captured Joe said:
Oh dear

Also what is your opinion about the weird new unit classes? "Very light this" and "Super heavy that", for example. I find those weird and unnecessary.

They made a lot sense in Rome II and actually have a massive impact on their effectiveness. In fact the unit mass system is one of my favorite things about the combat.

Very light cavalry units are fast but do very little charge damage even to the lightest units. Most horse archers are light or medium. Super heavy units like cataphracts are slow and take ages to turn, but they do huge amounts of damage to everything but the heaviest infantry and cavalry. Cataphracts will appear to steamroll light cavalry if they charge into them, making nomadic armies really fragile against melee cavalry. They also instakill a lot of infantry.

Infantry can brace (i.e. stand still for a few seconds) to halve the amount of mass damage they take frontally. Hoplites are usually Very Heavy, making a static hoplite army almost impervious to cavalry. In fact, in Rome II most spearmen are heavier than equivalent swordsmen, and this is what makes them stronger against cavalry, not so much their bonuses against cavalry (which are tiny for hoplites).

And surprise surprise, the cavalry mass feature was disabled in Total War Attila because they made all the cavalry too heavy, and the Rome II formula for calculating mass made the cavalry die upon impact with anything. So instead of editing the formula, they disabled the feature. A hilarious side effect of this is that elephants cannot kill cavalry, and light cavalry does cataphract-tier damage to infantry from the rear. Also if you see any units with the "expert charge defence" (almost all the spearmen in Total war attila have this), it is completely useless because it relied on the Rome II unit mass formula.
 
This is why outrage over the entire game rather than outrage over broken features, mechanics, etc, is not a good thing. CA learned their lesson: anything in Rome 2 must be gone for their next games. That's why Warhammer is nothing like Rome 2/Attila from a 'feel' perspective. Among other things, of course.
 
Jacobhinds said:
- The Campaign AI is utterly HOI4-tier retarded and is designed from the ground up to be superficially challenging, declaring war on the player even when in other wars. I've seen players get declarations of war from minor factions with enemy armies on their doorstep, and nothing to gain. If you're a horde, the AI will send armies across desolate territory to fight you for no gain at all. All of the AI's behavior is player-centric, and very often nothing of interest happens in the Fog of War. The Huns can often march straight through province after province of hostile AI territory if they're gunning for the player.
If you disable the FOW via a mod, you'll see how broken and buggy and impossibly stupid the AI is:
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/149355/all-knowing-and-obsessed-ai
Isn't that mostly related to the difficulty settings? It clearly affetcs the diplomati opinion tha Ai factions have of you, and I think that part with ignoring the enemies at their gates and attacking the player relates to the difficulty as well. I remember some time back in E:TW, when I played as the Netherlands on very hard, that the marathas attacked me very early in the game, when they were still in full war with the mughals (They shipped a huge army all the way to Curacao ffs). Since then I only play on normal, and although this makes the game definitly easier, I never had this problem again.
 
The bloated cheaty income the AI gets on VH/VH inflates their opinion of themselves, which in turn makes them feel less cautious about throwing armies away. I'm convinced there's a hidden "panic mode" the AI goes into when it runs out of money, because in Rome II when I removed their free income, they suddenly started acting a lot more intelligently.
 
Jacobhinds said:
The bloated cheaty income the AI gets on VH/VH inflates their opinion of themselves, which in turn makes them feel less cautious about throwing armies away. I'm convinced there's a hidden "panic mode" the AI goes into when it runs out of money, because in Rome II when I removed their free income, they suddenly started acting a lot more intelligently.
Ya there are mods to eliminate that problem in Attila as well as RomeII I believe. Such as No AI Cheats
For most things that you list can be fixed with mods, such as the CAI, unit cards, and the upgrade system

The turn-based things you bring up are very legitimate concern though. I can't stand it myself.
A new general spawns right after defeating an army without a turn passing by, quite frustrating.

I agree with your conclusion that the game sucks, but they did make strides of graphical, animation, and multiplayer improvements from ShogunII.
Though those should really be second to campaign mechanics.
 
Gotta agree that the Total War franchise has so many flaws in their system and it just seems that many of the games' mechanics were half-assed and the developers just doesn't put enough effort into them. Which is a shame IMO because the concept itself is so innovative and the potential for it is huuuge and yet the stuff that they've produced have been quite underwhelming tbh. :neutral:
 
Captured Joe said:
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) said:
I agree with your conclusion that the game sucks, but they did make strides of graphical, animation, and multiplayer improvements from ShogunII.
Have you checked the screenshot thread? :shifty:
Ya man. But do you remember ShogunII where all castles had a single keep surrounded by walls.
Now you get to maneuver through cities with civilians tending fields and huge monuments in them.
That's what I mean by graphical improvements, not the individual unit graphics.
 
Jacobhinds said:
A lot of folks on steam also thought the Reynold Sanity videos were a good analysis of Rome II.
They were tho - not universally, but certainly in regard to some of the topics (especially feel of combat and the related bits). Fight me. Granted, a lot of it was fixed later on, but that doesn't mean the videos suddenly became bad, just outdated. :razz:
 
Reynold Sanity focuses on this dumb fallacy that the unit collision in Rome II and the warscape engine in general is "fake". He forgets that blobbing units in Rome 1 and Medieval 2 were some of the jankiest things ever, much worse than even Rome II at release. What made Rome II look worse on release was that the unit collision boxes were a bit smaller than the unit models. Once they enlarged them in a patch, the jankiness was mostly gone from most combat situations.

I haven't watched his videos in a while but a lot of what he said was just plain wrong/misguided, even at the time. Especially his comparisons to previous games and the assertion that Shogun II is "dripping with polish". Unless he just means the unit models look shiny, it's got more visual and gameplay bugs than Napoopan or even ETW (in the visual department). It is also a much simpler game with literally 10 unit types and ultra-streamlined combat and campaign mechanics.
 
Amontadillo? said:
not universally

outdated
Sorry, I have a get out of jail free card. :razz:

Shogun polish comment was in specific about how they did night lighting - in-game lamp as opposed to giant god light and in general about details like that.

I wouldn't say blobbing was worse than in Rome 2 at release at all, really. It's pretty bad, but in a different way, and while in the earlier ones if you put 50 units in the same place they'd jankily spread themselves out, in Rome 2 at launch they'd all just stand in each other. General unit interaction was much better in the older ones than Rome 2 at launch.

I fully admit I'm biased against Rome 2's melee combat and much prefer the old one, tho. It's really one of the primary things I remember from the videos, that and the idiocy that is the army limit and General system.

Jacobhinds said:
It is also a much simpler game with literally 10 unit types and ultra-streamlined combat and campaign mechanics.
Also worth pointing out that he didn't really universally praise shogun or anything. Just specific examples that he thought they did well. He also had criticism aplenty for Shogun and Empire.
 
For those of you who aren't on the free games thread-
IA said:
They're giving away Jotun: Valhalla Edition over on Steam. I don't know much about the game, other than that it's labeled as an, "action-exploration game"
 
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