the spear is still pretty decent and has enough range to be competitive with lancers and knights. Dont think Heavy cav should get access to lances at all. Light cav should fill that role.
Cataphract
- Thread starter Callum
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This. Give the man a lance as a default and lower the price to 190.
It is neither overpriced nor underpowered. Assuming the Kontos is used, you'll have the upper hand against every other cavalry and you can also beat spear equipped infantry. The playstyle required to succeed with the cataphract is different to that of other cavalry units so any comparison between them doesn't make much sense such that, for instance, lances are much superior against non-spear equipped infantry and archers so they fulfill somewhat different functions. In short, in my opinion, cataphracts should ideally be used for anti-cavalry and anti-spearmen purposes but they can also be almost as effective against other infantry types as well.
Biyonik
Sergeant
Any shieldless unit is literally meme in skirmish. A pila or a thrown axe and you are either dead or have very low hp. Also when you get are fighting multiple cavalries you cant watch out for every couched lance so you wont last long.
It doesn't really help when they get shot/harassed to death by archers/javelins whenever they get near... seriously.. give this unit a lance.. its 200 gold ffs
It's not the fault of the class if you die charging archers head on nor will having a lance change that in any way.
come on, any infantry or archer with a bit of awareness will see you coming 80% of the time, or they might be shooting from a high location with cover (the edges on the desert map, the glitchy huts in the village map) where they can shoot just about the whole map. A shield helps a lot and is necessary when ranged weapons can kill a cataphract in one shot
it is the fault of the class for giving poor weapon choices (kontos = lance in terms of damage, yet is far worse in terms of defense capability), and it even costs more
In Skirmish it's essentially useless to pick the Kontos unless you are going to be playing ambush Cav, IE let the infantry engage and distract the enemy team and then ride in and support. However, any infantry with a spear, throwing weapon, and ranged unit should be gunning for enemy cav as the biggest threat to prevent knockdowns at the very least. Since just about any Infantry class for any faction gets throwing weapons, combined with an archer or two also taking pot shots, and your chances for dodging or getting hits in without being interrupted are very slim.
It's by far the best and perhaps an overpowered cav unit in the game, because:
- It has the longest polearm by far, and since reach in jousting is the deciding factor more than anything (except maybe timing), other cav simply can't compete if both players are on the same skill level, making even the "famed" Vlandian Knights underpowered.
- Their heavily armoured horses can catch up to most other un- / little armoured, this nullifies any advantage light cavalry might have had, and ultimately defeats their purpose.
Give the Khuzaits and Vlandians the option to pick lances about that long. This I feel is short-term solution but it is at least a solution for the time being.
- It has the longest polearm by far, and since reach in jousting is the deciding factor more than anything (except maybe timing), other cav simply can't compete if both players are on the same skill level, making even the "famed" Vlandian Knights underpowered.
- Their heavily armoured horses can catch up to most other un- / little armoured, this nullifies any advantage light cavalry might have had, and ultimately defeats their purpose.
Give the Khuzaits and Vlandians the option to pick lances about that long. This I feel is short-term solution but it is at least a solution for the time being.
I don't think they're that Overpowered over other Cav, maybe in a Cav vs Cav scenario they hold an edge in reach with the Kontos. However, if they choose the Kontos it comes at the cost of a shield making them extremely vulnerable to ranged units. There in lies their weakness, they're a great Anti-Cav choice, but noticeably weaker than other factions taking on infantry and archers.
The Kontos also isn't couchable, if you give Khuzaits and Vlandians lances as long as the Kontos, they will quickly rise above the other factions in the game as their Cav will be all but unstoppable. Still even with the Cataphract's edge in Cav vs Cav, Khuzait Horse Archers, Aserai, and Sturgia all get access to bows to use from horseback, all you need to do is kite them and stay out of range and pelt them with arrows and they will easily fall because the Cataphract doesn't have a shield with the Kontos.
The Kontos also isn't couchable, if you give Khuzaits and Vlandians lances as long as the Kontos, they will quickly rise above the other factions in the game as their Cav will be all but unstoppable. Still even with the Cataphract's edge in Cav vs Cav, Khuzait Horse Archers, Aserai, and Sturgia all get access to bows to use from horseback, all you need to do is kite them and stay out of range and pelt them with arrows and they will easily fall because the Cataphract doesn't have a shield with the Kontos.
Not really. Their heavy armour combined with their decent speed means even when charging straight at one line of archers they could not have lost a single horse, the archers would have to get 3 or more volleys on the cavalry but after the initial volley cav will close the distance very quickly meaning archers wouldn't stand a chance after that. I don't even use a shield if I can instead pick a longer lance because my horse will usually die first anyway.
I don't even couch my lances very often because again, reach is everything and you don't get max reach with couching. So again, pretty powerful in jousting combat.
The cataphracts have access to bows too, for some bizarre reason.
As I've mentioned arrows usually only do 30 damage to a cataphract horseman and with the speed of his mount he can catch up to the horse archer after he's released his second arrow.
Archers shouldn't be firing at their horse if there aren't Inf to stop them with their spears. Archers should also position themselves so they aren't too exposed and have cover to utilize if the Cav can close on them. I've played enough as an archer to know that a well placed hit on the rider scares the Cav off from actually closing the distance. Where as other cav with shields available to them can at least protect themselves on approach.
Also, despite what Couching is technically for, jousting other cav, Couching is terrible to use against other Cav in the game as you have stated it isn't using the lance's full reach potential. Couching is good to line up unaware ground targets for instant kills where an otherwise regular thrust with a lance from horseback wouldn't kill the target. Or catching an unaware or poorly positioned enemy Cav offguard and either killing the rider or their horse.
Cataphracts do get access to bows as well, true, but in a Skirmish map, for a Horse Archer or other Bow cav to pull out a bow and duel eachother is a huge waste of time if their respective teams are otherwise clashing on the map. They could use that time better by either supporting their team or perhaps get in a few potshots on a horse or rider if they're confident they can hit with it.
If you give Khuzaits and Vlandia longer lances, if they are still able to wield a shield with it, they will become the new Cataphracts and now you have 2 factions with OP units instead of one that has some distinct advantages but also serious drawbacks.
Also, despite what Couching is technically for, jousting other cav, Couching is terrible to use against other Cav in the game as you have stated it isn't using the lance's full reach potential. Couching is good to line up unaware ground targets for instant kills where an otherwise regular thrust with a lance from horseback wouldn't kill the target. Or catching an unaware or poorly positioned enemy Cav offguard and either killing the rider or their horse.
Cataphracts do get access to bows as well, true, but in a Skirmish map, for a Horse Archer or other Bow cav to pull out a bow and duel eachother is a huge waste of time if their respective teams are otherwise clashing on the map. They could use that time better by either supporting their team or perhaps get in a few potshots on a horse or rider if they're confident they can hit with it.
If you give Khuzaits and Vlandia longer lances, if they are still able to wield a shield with it, they will become the new Cataphracts and now you have 2 factions with OP units instead of one that has some distinct advantages but also serious drawbacks.
The block delay is just too slow with the menav, makes it unbearable. Might as well just swing and never block.
I hate you for suggesting this. Teammates taking heavy cavalry with bows is the worst thing to deal with. A good round would be 10 kills with that awful combination.
Fair enough, that is pretty true. lolz. I just enjoyed the semi-historical nature of the Empire faction, what with Legions carrying Pila and heavy bow cavalry who could at least harass pike-armed light infantry and shock troops. It is true that the game in its current state has gone in a completely different direction, though. The stats and perks of the troop would have to change a lot in general to make it worth considering, and a heavy bow cav is a pretty narrow use case in general.
I just enjoy the concept of a multi-purpose cavalry that adapts, which I think was their function historically.
I'm probably an edge-case, as the only cav I can play with any degree of success is Nomads + Bows, which is just a terrible unit in general, and even then only on the very large open maps.
+ bows on heavy cav were great, not the hunting ones tho (recurve bows are somewhat good)
I would like to have a combo recurve bow/fast kontos for cata, becouse fast kontos alone is kinda trash atm, it trades off BOTH damage and range over speed (over heavy kontos), and leaves you without shieldforcing power of shield+shortspear
