Why are Cataphracts and Knights

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LDominating

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Why are Cataphracts,Druzhinik and Knight LESS armored than Faris,Heavy Lancers,Khan's Guards and Heavy Horse Archers.
Is there any particular reason why K Heavy Horse Archers,Khan's Guards,Darkhans and Heavy Lancers alongside Veteran Infantry and Faris have MORE Body Armour and in some cases head armour than what I recall beign called "Tanks" of the Medieval Times.
 
El. Catph: Body 64
Druz.Chmp: Body 57
Bann.Kni: Body 54
Van.Far: Body 67
H.Lanc.: Body 51
Kh.Gua: Body 52
H.HA: Body 48

The Khuzait cavalry in-game are universally lesser armored than Vlandian, Sturgian and Imperial cavalry.

And I dunno why you're assuming Faris should be lighter armored than other cavalry, because historically the ancient Middle Eastern factions were using heavily armored cavalry long before the Romans adopted the practice for themselves, as well as Medieval Middle Eastern cavalry were every-bit as well armored as Western cavalry. As a matter of fact, both the pre-Turk Caliphate cavalry, AND the later Seljuk Turk cavalry were formidably armored.

The complete overtaking of Western armor quality over Middle Eastern, happens when the transitional period ends and full-body plate protection begin to arrive -- and that's after the Medieval era has ended, in the 15th~16th centuries.
 
El. Catph: Body 64
Druz.Chmp: Body 57
Bann.Kni: Body 54
Van.Far: Body 67
H.Lanc.: Body 51
Kh.Gua: Body 52
H.HA: Body 48

The Khuzait cavalry in-game are universally lesser armored than Vlandian, Sturgian and Imperial cavalry.

And I dunno why you're assuming Faris should be lighter armored than other cavalry, because historically the ancient Middle Eastern factions were using heavily armored cavalry long before the Romans adopted the practice for themselves, as well as Medieval Middle Eastern cavalry were every-bit as well armored as Western cavalry. As a matter of fact, both the pre-Turk Caliphate cavalry, AND the later Seljuk Turk cavalry were formidably armored.

The complete overtaking of Western armor quality over Middle Eastern, happens when the transitional period ends and full-body plate protection begin to arrive -- and that's after the Medieval era has ended, in the 15th~16th centuries.
The difference between Horse Archers and freaking Knight/Druzhinik and Cataphracts is way too low,don't you see?
More to the point,they are Horse Archers and not Lancers!

And altough they had used armored cavalry before Europe,they weren't using them as much or on the same par.
The entirety of Western and South Western Asia were using light cavalry mostly with a few elite heavy armored lancers users.

And don't compare the European Cataphracts/Knights with Middle Easterners or Steppe Lancers.
We all know how Saladin won these battles,and it's not by direct confrontation because everytime a Middle Easterner met an European or Byzantine Cavalry in Heavy vs Heavy it was a one way massacre in favour of the Europeans.

BUT!
This isn't about historical accuracy,but balance of troops and how they feel in game.
And IT FEELS AWFUL!
Knights and Druzhinik ESPECIALLY feel so light compared to Khan;s and Vanguards,EVEN in sieges!
 
The difference between Horse Archers and freaking Knight/Druzhinik and Cataphracts is way too low,don't you see?
More to the point,they are Horse Archers and not Lancers!

The "difference" you think is completely arbitrary without reason. Heavy horse archers and heavy lancers are the equivalent to the elite of the Mongol forces which would constitute around 20~30% of an expeditionary army at any given time, and there's nothing saying that they were poorly armored.

If you're thinking vaguely "oh horse archers were generally poorly armored" -- try compare it with the T2-T3 horse archers, instead of comparing with a T5-T6.


And altough they had used armored cavalry before Europe,they weren't using them as much or on the same par.

According to whom?

The East ALWAYS used way more heavy cavalry in ANY given moment of history. From the first moment large-scale clashes would happen between the Roman Republic with the Parthians and their cataphracts, to the bit*ch-slapping the Imperial Romans received from Sassanid cataphracts, all the way to Medieval armies of the Arabian Caliphates and Seljuk Turks, and latter-day Ottomans.

What, you think only the West were relying on elite cavalry forces?


The entirety of Western and South Western Asia were using light cavalry mostly with a few elite heavy armored lancers users.

Demonstrably false.


And don't compare the European Cataphracts/Knights with Middle Easterners or Steppe Lancers.
We all know how Saladin won these battles,and it's not by direct confrontation because everytime a Middle Easterner met an European or Byzantine Cavalry in Heavy vs Heavy it was a one way massacre in favour of the Europeans.

You mean like at Horns of Hattin?
How about the Fall of Acre?
The disasters of 5th and 7th Crusades?
How about Ager Sanguinis?
Forbie?

What? The Crusaders didn't have any knights in the above instances?

Or how about we extend the period to the latter times, instead of just remaining at the earlier exploits of heroic Crusaders, and say, to a time when the times of Mamluk Sultans and Ottoman Sultans would start to appear? They don't count?

See, you think it was a "one-sided massacre" because this narrative you're familiar with is one of a giant confirmation bias which simply leaves out major humiliating defeats of Crusaders, and remembers only the handful few humiliating situations for the regional Muslim factions. So you remember just Dorylaeum and Jaffa, or the heroic exploits of just a few hundred capable knights routing thousands of soldiers of the armies of the amirs, and yet, just simply leave out all the MAJORITY of instances where similarly-sized armies of similar composition of HEAVY cavalry fought, with some victories going to the Crusaders, others going to the Muslim factions.


BUT!
This isn't about historical accuracy,but balance of troops and how they feel in game.
And IT FEELS AWFUL!
Knights and Druzhinik ESPECIALLY feel so light compared to Khan;s and Vanguards,EVEN in sieges!

If this isn't about comparative historical accuracy, your entire argument has no basis at all, and falls apart.

Who says a totally fictional army of horse archers or lancers, have to be necessarily less-armored (which, they ALREADY ARE. Have you seen the leg armor on the Khan's Guard?) than knights?
 
If we are really that interested in history: I seem to recall learning that some folks used elephants in war. I really enjoyed the warband mods that added non-horse mounts. And yes... I know we currently have... camels... but...

I want to name my Aserai character Hannibal and cross some mountainous terrain into the empire and crush them :twisted:. Who needs strong armour if you are too high to be poked by a stick and your mount is squishing everyone? That should make for some slow armies though :???:
 
The "difference" you think is completely arbitrary without reason. Heavy horse archers and heavy lancers are the equivalent to the elite of the Mongol forces which would constitute around 20~30% of an expeditionary army at any given time, and there's nothing saying that they were poorly armored.

If you're thinking vaguely "oh horse archers were generally poorly armored" -- try compare it with the T2-T3 horse archers, instead of comparing with a T5-T6.




According to whom?

The East ALWAYS used way more heavy cavalry in ANY given moment of history. From the first moment large-scale clashes would happen between the Roman Republic with the Parthians and their cataphracts, to the bit*ch-slapping the Imperial Romans received from Sassanid cataphracts, all the way to Medieval armies of the Arabian Caliphates and Seljuk Turks, and latter-day Ottomans.

What, you think only the West were relying on elite cavalry forces?




Demonstrably false.




You mean like at Horns of Hattin?
How about the Fall of Acre?
The disasters of 5th and 7th Crusades?
How about Ager Sanguinis?
Forbie?

What? The Crusaders didn't have any knights in the above instances?

Or how about we extend the period to the latter times, instead of just remaining at the earlier exploits of heroic Crusaders, and say, to a time when the times of Mamluk Sultans and Ottoman Sultans would start to appear? They don't count?

See, you think it was a "one-sided massacre" because this narrative you're familiar with is one of a giant confirmation bias which simply leaves out major humiliating defeats of Crusaders, and remembers only the handful few humiliating situations for the regional Muslim factions. So you remember just Dorylaeum and Jaffa, or the heroic exploits of just a few hundred capable knights routing thousands of soldiers of the armies of the amirs, and yet, just simply leave out all the MAJORITY of instances where similarly-sized armies of similar composition of HEAVY cavalry fought, with some victories going to the Crusaders, others going to the Muslim factions.




If this isn't about comparative historical accuracy, your entire argument has no basis at all, and falls apart.

Who says a totally fictional army of horse archers or lancers, have to be necessarily less-armored (which, they ALREADY ARE. Have you seen the leg armor on the Khan's Guard?) than knights?
Opinion rejected,you're way too biased towards your Khuzaits and Aserai
Next thing you're going to say "Yea the Turks and Arabs had better infantry" than the Byzantine or Slavic nation of the Medieval Era?
Because LET ME hit you with the same BS you hit me,why are Veteran Infantry and Darkhans EVEN remotely as armored as the Sturgian Infantry,actually even better equipped?

Huh?
Yea take your Khuzaits and Aserai ass out of here and lose a few Body Armour,fanboy!
This was a serious discussion,you just used "Muh ancestors were MUCH BETTEH",especially considering that DATA and FACTS prove that Knights and Cataphracts aren't as good as Faris and Khan's Guards IN MELEE!
And last time I check when Barbarossa was on his way,the entirety of the Arabic alliance of Saladin were considering switching sides.
Surely it was because of the poorly equipped Knights and Infantry.

You gave a few examples of IRL battles of a few Man At Arms beign poorly used OR even worse example,giving an example on how exactly how you'd fight Knights,hit and run tactics beign used against Knights or Man At Arms to great effect.
I mean I could also turn the page and just give a few battles of Richard Lionheart and my point would still hold!
 
Opinion rejected,you're way too biased towards your Khuzaits and Aserai
Next thing you're going to say "Yea the Turks and Arabs had better infantry" than the Byzantine or Slavic nation of the Medieval Era?
Because LET ME hit you with the same BS you hit me,why are Veteran Infantry and Darkhans EVEN remotely as armored as the Sturgian Infantry,actually even better equipped?

Huh?
Yea take your Khuzaits and Aserai ass out of here and lose a few Body Armour,fanboy!
This was a serious discussion,you just used "Muh ancestors were MUCH BETTEH",especially considering that DATA and FACTS prove that Knights and Cataphracts aren't as good as Faris and Khan's Guards IN MELEE!
And last time I check when Barbarossa was on his way,the entirety of the Arabic alliance of Saladin were considering switching sides.
Surely it was because of the poorly equipped Knights and Infantry.

You gave a few examples of IRL battles of a few Man At Arms beign poorly used OR even worse example,giving an example on how exactly how you'd fight Knights,hit and run tactics beign used against Knights or Man At Arms to great effect.
I mean I could also turn the page and just give a few battles of Richard Lionheart and my point would still hold!
It's impressive that kweassa thoroughly disassembled your entire (poor) attempt at 'historical accuracy' on which you based your argument, and you can't even bring yourself to admit that you were wrong and instead had to change to a completely different comparison. I think the accusation of bias should be going the other way around this time - you seem to be a pretty big 'fanboy' of these factions, to the point of ignoring historical fact.
 
Opinion rejected,you're way too biased towards your Khuzaits and Aserai
Next thing you're going to say "Yea the Turks and Arabs had better infantry" than the Byzantine or Slavic nation of the Medieval Era?
Because LET ME hit you with the same BS you hit me,why are Veteran Infantry and Darkhans EVEN remotely as armored as the Sturgian Infantry,actually even better equipped?

Huh?
Yea take your Khuzaits and Aserai ass out of here and lose a few Body Armour,fanboy!
This was a serious discussion,you just used "Muh ancestors were MUCH BETTEH",especially considering that DATA and FACTS prove that Knights and Cataphracts aren't as good as Faris and Khan's Guards IN MELEE!
And last time I check when Barbarossa was on his way,the entirety of the Arabic alliance of Saladin were considering switching sides.
Surely it was because of the poorly equipped Knights and Infantry.

You gave a few examples of IRL battles of a few Man At Arms beign poorly used OR even worse example,giving an example on how exactly how you'd fight Knights,hit and run tactics beign used against Knights or Man At Arms to great effect.
I mean I could also turn the page and just give a few battles of Richard Lionheart and my point would still hold!
Both biased, and it's pointless. This isn't a historically accurate game and only taking inspirations from a wide period of references; especially if the NPC/field tactics can't come in any way close to being capable of being represented.

You want your favoured faction Cats/Druz significantly more heavily armored than their comparable 'T6' nobles of other factions for history's sake? How would you propose balancing it against the other factions (not saying what TW has now is any way close to it tbf)?

There's a **** ton of realism that can't be added that play a significant role that is not in this calculus (and I don't think TW capable of even being close to coding in).
 
There's a **** ton of realism that can't be added that play a significant role that is not in this calculus (and I don't think TW capable of even being close to coding in).
So far TW have delivered just a medieval - look ( and still not even working properly ) console - MP " shooter ".
This is not the next - gen game their Warband - plus - mods ( single player ) PC fans were looking forward to.
It appears that TW can't do much more now.
The WIP total overhaul mods that sound really great, for Japan, Wars of the Roses, Middle Earth, etc, might, eventually, be the cavalry coming to the rescue. These can, hopefully, be the interesting, sophisticated, " historical ", deep and immersive " BL " games that frustrated discerning PC fans are wanting to get into ................ if TW ever lets go of BL, free from their fiddling updates, applying more and more lipstick to their pig.
 
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