Are cavalry charges lame in your opinion?

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DennyWiseau

Regular
There is some evidence suggesting cavalry charges never worked the way we think they might have (smashing horses galloping at full speed vs masses of armed men) but instead they might have nudged and probed their way into formations (at a walking speed) until gaps appeared and then ran through those gaps until all cohesion on the other side broke.

I wonder what the physics and mechanics of real ancient/medieval battles actually looked like.. I guess we’ll never truly know.
Alot of medieval tapestry depict horses in full gallop on their way, or almost smashing into infantry lines. While some some evidence might suggest otherwise, that dosent necessarily discredit all other sources.

More likely explanition (in my mind) would be that mounted warfare wasent fixed to a certain tactic/use, it evovled and adapted over the +2000 years its been prevalent, suiting whatever need of those capable of deploying them.

That being said, when it comes to Bannerlord specifically, I think that gameplay should come before realism allways. So I welcome any enhancements/changes that will make charges/mounted combat better
 

xDizzyBx

Recruit
As far as I recall, this was from one of their blog or something like that.
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Well, I think I never had a chance to see something like this in the game so far. Because cavalry is always either too disorganized or distracted with other surrounding people. I think "unit targeting" would fix this lameness - or at least feeling of lameness. I don't think it's rocket science either. Select cavalry - Hover your indicator flag to the enemy squad(Even show a target icon, something like use icon on machinery) - F3 and they will lock to that particular squad.
If you just select your cavalry, and F3 without specifying anything else, let them charge as usual.
That might sound to surreal but there is actually a mod like this - I guess it was in RTS mod. So it's pretty much doable.
Well damn, while suicidal, that charge into the enemy's front shieldwall and spear points looks pretty decent. Sadly I have not seen anything like that in my game.
 

Abyssos

Recruit
There is some evidence suggesting cavalry charges never worked the way we think they might have (smashing horses galloping at full speed vs masses of armed men) but instead they might have nudged and probed their way into formations (at a walking speed) until gaps appeared and then ran through those gaps until all cohesion on the other side broke.

I wonder what the physics and mechanics of real ancient/medieval battles actually looked like.. I guess we’ll never truly know.
well i allready say this couple times before...problem is that anything can stop a cavalry charge in this game...me full gearded with horse good armor to,couch lance-- can be stoped by a looter with a woodenhammer or a peasant with sickle..thats the real issue there..but overall cavalry charges arent that bad..as i say..as long they have the space to regroup and charge again..

about the physics/mechanics...go to your local police im pretty sure they and a cavalry unit and ask for a reenact hahaha..saw once police with few horses clean a street full of drunk..man those few horses were the scariest thing i ever saw...imagine hundreds..
 

Abyssos

Recruit
yeah,they are really week/broke..Just had a battle with me as a Vlandian charged 40 banner knights into the back of maybe 50 sturgian archers...the outcome? 6 killed sturgians in the initial charge and then my cav got bogged downed and started to die like flies..Its like they cant hit **** even with the 250 something in polearms!!...I really think the AI in cav charges is completely borked:sad:
you not using the correct cavalry :smile: use the Elite Cataphract and Sturgian Druzhinik Champion....did you use the vladian banner knight?i saw someone say other day that the vladians use more slash damage so maybe thats why?dont know..but the Elite Cataphract are super good..and very hard to kill..i normally run an army of those mixed with khuzait khans guard..and nothing can stop me...best score so far 1700 VS 460 of me...got 2 deaths
 
The biggest issue for cavalry is how wonky the hit boxes are while on horseback, I mean even the ai can't aim properly vs how easily a peasant with an axe or sickle can easily take off half your health while you ride by at full speed.
 

AnandaShanti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Havent played BL in some time but one thing always noticed was that the Cav just didnt seem to be able to aim their melee attacks properly from horseback. Playin Warband now and they are all absolute killers from horseback always finding the absolute correct angle to attack from - in Bannerlord they seemed utterly off -has this been addressed at all?
It's been brought up over and over but no improvement has been made. I mean, they'll say they re-worked AI, but Cav still durps it up. It was one of the first things in MP beta that stood out, how awkwardly they handle their weapons and fail to connect. Further more, their side arms are just awful and completely inappropriate for a mounted unit. They just don't know how to hit with the side arms at a ground unit at all. I don't blame them since with such a short weapon the angle is really bad in bannerlord, whereas in warband you could swoop down much more freely and exactly. They miss with the polearm too much too. No excuse for that, they just aren't right in the AI.
 
It's been brought up over and over but no improvement has been made. I mean, they'll say they re-worked AI, but Cav still durps it up. It was one of the first things in MP beta that stood out, how awkwardly they handle their weapons and fail to connect. Further more, their side arms are just awful and completely inappropriate for a mounted unit. They just don't know how to hit with the side arms at a ground unit at all. I don't blame them since with such a short weapon the angle is really bad in bannerlord, whereas in warband you could swoop down much more freely and exactly. They miss with the polearm too much too. No excuse for that, they just aren't right in the AI.
I just don't get why it worked so well (maybe too well) in Warband but in BL cav is :poop:.
 

Because

Sergeant
I just don't get why it worked so well (maybe too well) in Warband but in BL cav is :poop:.
Would be good if they could get close to their Warband effectiveness. After all it's called MOUNT & Blade, and good cavalry combat was one of the hallmarks of the original game.
 

AnandaShanti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I just don't get why it worked so well (maybe too well) in Warband but in BL cav is :poop:.
It's bazar and I wonder if all the AI is tuned for hitting when on foot and it's not different for mounted units, or at least a WIP. Like the Mounted units is still timing it's attack as if it's on foot or something. Although not a martial arts master by any means, any unmounted melee seems fine with timing and landing a hit at a charging cavalry, which is kinda weird and fake. Maybe they were too worried about Cav being too good in Captain mode so they made sure they would get hit. I also wonder if they, like some posters here, just load a custom battle a charge 100 tier 6 Cav into 100 whatevers and go "look they killed some of em, it works!"
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
Yeah its weird -so like in my current Warband campaign im leading Slave Crushers and these guys are timing those big two handed wooden Hammers perfectly from horseback -probably the most akward weapon you could use from horseback yet the AI are spot on with it. Ive always been amazed at the way even Mount and Blade 1 -the Cav could just slice these perfect angles from horseback -so that a human player couldnt cheese attack the cav by "hiding" in tight angles. Im guessing its something with the new engine - a good reminderhow hard this kind of programming is -even the masters of this niche have a hard time recreating it
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
any unmounted melee seems fine with timing and landing a hit at a charging cavalry, which is kinda weird and fake
Yes! this IS bizarre and i kinda hate it. The ground units for some reason can counter any Cav unit seemingly with even a pen knife yet the cav couldnt hit a fat cow in a barn
 
It's bazar and I wonder if all the AI is tuned for hitting when on foot and it's not different for mounted units, or at least a WIP. Like the Mounted units is still timing it's attack as if it's on foot or something. Although not a martial arts master by any means, any unmounted melee seems fine with timing and landing a hit at a charging cavalry, which is kinda weird and fake. Maybe they were too worried about Cav being too good in Captain mode so they made sure they would get hit. I also wonder if they, like some posters here, just load a custom battle a charge 100 tier 6 Cav into 100 whatevers and go "look they killed some of em, it works!"
I typically didn't play Swadia in Warband, I much preferred the Rodocks. But using Swadian Knights was the ultimate power fantasy in WB and it was so f'ing cool. I would love to be able to have that feeling again in Bannerlord. I don't care if TW figures out the issue or a modder I just want good cavalry again.
 

AnandaShanti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Yeah its weird -so like in my current Warband campaign im leading Slave Crushers and these guys are timing those big two handed wooden Hammers perfectly from horseback -probably the most akward weapon you could use from horseback yet the AI are spot on with it. Ive always been amazed at the way even Mount and Blade 1 -the Cav could just slice these perfect angles from horseback -so that a human player couldnt cheese attack the cav by "hiding" in tight angles. Im guessing its something with the new engine - a good reminderhow hard this kind of programming is -even the masters of this niche have a hard time recreating it
I typically didn't play Swadia in Warband, I much preferred the Rodocks. But using Swadian Knights was the ultimate power fantasy in WB and it was so f'ing cool. I would love to be able to have that feeling again in Bannerlord. I don't care if TW figures out the issue or a modder I just want good cavalry again.
Yeah it's not just Sawdian knight, but all cavalry was pretty effective in warband, Swadians just had max armor and horse armor so they would out last anything else. I enjoyed playing a late warband mod called Lords of Calradia, that made players and AI both acquire horses to recruit mounted units.... the one hole was that manhunters existed (alone with much more bandit parties..) and so I accumulated a massive amount and easily crushed the AI :smile:
Anyways, even though Swadian get all the fame, any Cav was very good! And not to forget Houscarls were very powerful too, so there's no excuse for "oh but infantry will be bad if Cavalry is good..." Infantry is bad in BL because it hasn't been made good enough !
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
The differences are evident (note that the tests were done in April).

As for the cavalry charges, for those who might be interested, here is a small test of mine providing a set of suggestions.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight
Cavalry AI improvements are planned thanks to MP guys. Same for archers, it looks like they will get stronger because captain mode guys are complaining about archers effectiveness. I came to the conclusion that TW devs involved in units balancing do not care much about SP balancing and all that matters is MP guys.

So I feel that it is sadly pointless to discuss about unit balancing in SP forum. Luckily, captain mode players also find cavalry AI pretty bad, so it will be improved in future patches.
 

AnandaShanti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Cavalry AI improvements are planned thanks to MP guys. Same for archers, it looks like they will get stronger because captain mode guys are complaining about archers effectiveness. I came to the conclusion that TW devs involved in units balancing do not care much about SP balancing and all that matters is MP guys.

So I feel that it is sadly pointless to discuss about unit balancing in SP forum. Luckily, captain mode players also find cavalry AI pretty bad, so it will be improved in future patches.
They better actually improve it though, not make other AI worse instead, like they've already done, making ranged units ignore mounted units until within close range.
 
Cavalry AI improvements are planned thanks to MP guys. Same for archers, it looks like they will get stronger because captain mode guys are complaining about archers effectiveness. I came to the conclusion that TW devs involved in units balancing do not care much about SP balancing and all that matters is MP guys.

So I feel that it is sadly pointless to discuss about unit balancing in SP forum. Luckily, captain mode players also find cavalry AI pretty bad, so it will be improved in future patches.
Considering how few few people are playing mp it's just a stupid decision. It feels like someone at TW has a hard on for esports and thinks BL will be the next big thing. smh
 

Aerational

Regular
You can sorta counter the bad AI by just having them follow you as you ride through an infantry line, problem is if you die they are gonna be sitting ducks. Another thing you can do is click move them through the units you want to charge, but they don't move as fast as when you put them on attack.
 
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